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Old 09-10-2008, 11:48 PM   #91
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I.O.U. one superginormous bear hug


it is I that O U after your support late last summer following my chlorinated mishap.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:50 PM   #92
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Going along the theistic evolution route, what justifies the assertion that God created evolution?
From a metaphysical, non-scientific point-of-view, if you discovered that evolution had a naturalistic cause, then there would be the question of how that "cause" came to be. If the universe originated from a singularity, then the question is where the singularity came from. If the singularity came from the collision of two branes, then the question is where the branes came from.

In other words, science will never conclusively eliminate "God" from those who believe, because, for many people, science and nature are part of the key to understanding God, not an elimination of it.
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:02 AM   #93
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it is I that O U after your support late last summer following my chlorinated mishap.
that's what friends are for
..and that whole circle of love thing we were talking about.
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:04 AM   #94
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I believe in God.
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:13 AM   #95
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that's what friends are for
..and that whole circle of love thing we were talking about.


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Old 09-11-2008, 12:19 AM   #96
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From a metaphysical, non-scientific point-of-view, if you discovered that evolution had a naturalistic cause, then there would be the question of how that "cause" came to be. If the universe originated from a singularity, then the question is where the singularity came from. If the singularity came from the collision of two branes, then the question is where the branes came from.

In other words, science will never conclusively eliminate "God" from those who believe, because, for many people, science and nature are part of the key to understanding God, not an elimination of it.
We have a concept of how evolution works in biological systems, a naturalistic framework, thats fine without any creator and I understand that you remove creation from after the big bang.

The process of selection and evolution itself however does stretch into metaphysical territory because it isn't constrained to biological systems. It is a feature which will occur when those principles of replication, heritable variation and different survivorship exist and it will produce complexity (although not in a forced fashion).

In that sense I don't see how a process/sorting algorithm needs a creator any more than arithmetic needs a creator (but there are problems with that too).
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:16 AM   #97
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State Constitutions that Discriminate Against Atheists
When I was younger I thought about doing something in local or national politics. As I got older though it became painfully clear that as an atheist I'd have no chance. Not to sound melodramatic but it was crushing to think that because of my lack of faith it would be near impossible to get in a position to bring about real change.
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:20 AM   #98
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Do you honestly believe that all but one member of congress are believers? That would be a statistical oddity.
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:21 AM   #99
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When I was younger I thought about doing something in local or national politics. As I got older though it became painfully clear that as an atheist I'd have no chance. Not to sound melodramatic but it was crushing to think that because of my lack of faith it would be near impossible to get in a position to bring about real change.
Ah, see that's when you learn just what it takes to be a successful politician -- the ability to lie convincingly (at least convincingly enough to get elected) on just about any subject.
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:30 AM   #100
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Legally, of course, you don't have to lie about that; like many other state laws still technically 'on the books,' those are unenforceable as they violate both the First and Fourteenth Amendments (Torcaso v. Watkins, 1961).

The attitudes of the electorate are, unfortunately, a different story.
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:39 AM   #101
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Do you honestly believe that all but one member of congress are believers? That would be a statistical oddity.
I think so. If they'd mentioned being an atheist before, I'm sure the media or rival would have found it.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:03 AM   #102
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But if you suddenly find Jesus you become a darling to the voters.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:13 AM   #103
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But if you suddenly find Jesus you become a darling to the voters.
True.
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Old 09-11-2008, 06:30 AM   #104
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In 2007, congressman Pete Stark admitted that he does not believe in God, making him the first member of Congress -- and the highest-ranking elected official in the U.S. -- to publicly acknowledge he's an atheist.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:54 AM   #105
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In that sense I don't see how a process/sorting algorithm needs a creator any more than arithmetic needs a creator (but there are problems with that too).
You don't "need" one, in terms of scientific theory, but many people prefer to believe in one.

Frankly, most reasonable believers do not see God and science as an "either-or" proposition.
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