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Old 09-10-2008, 06:12 PM   #61
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duly and humbly noted. and corrected.
Mr Rooney...Ed, you're a beautiful man. I want to thank you for your warmth and compassion.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:18 PM   #62
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As soon as ID can meet the same scientific standards (as determined by the scientific community) evolution does, I'll be fine with it being taught as science. Until then it belongs only in religion or philosophy classes.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:28 PM   #63
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it's not, though, Harry. ID is an explicitly Christianist concept designed to have a patina of pseudo-scientific "credibility" that's a Trojan Horse for a fundamentalist agenda.

Intelligent design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

evolution and creationism cannot coexist on a creationist's terms.
O.K. then. Forget it. Someone (like all kinds of "believers" in a creator) should come up with a more unbiased (towards stricly "Christian") intelligent design theory. Wouldn't that be alright???
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:50 PM   #64
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O.K. then. Forget it. Someone (like all kinds of "believers" in a creator) should come up with a more unbiased (towards stricly "Christian") intelligent design theory. Wouldn't that be alright???
No. The problem isn't one of Christianity, it's a matter of a supreme being not being based in science, so it holds true for any religion.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:08 PM   #65
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O.K. then. Forget it. Someone (like all kinds of "believers" in a creator) should come up with a more unbiased (towards stricly "Christian") intelligent design theory. Wouldn't that be alright???
It's called "evolutionary creationism," or "theistic evolution." It's the scientific Theory of Evolution with a "...but it was created by God" suffix appended to it.

In other words, there's no need to teach anything but science in a science class.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:13 PM   #66
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I think it should be. Teach both. Spend more time on evolution, since it would be taught in science class and evolution is more science-y, but spend a little time (a few hours, days, whatever) going over creationism, and let the kids make up their minds and research what they want to research.

I know. I have such an extreme, far-right, anti-science point of view.
Yes, you do.

There is no controversy about the fact of evolution in science and teaching creation myths violates the first amendment.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:14 PM   #67
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Atheist but I do think there is an "afterlife" that at this point can't be understood yet by modern science.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:16 PM   #68
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Nonsense. One does not neccesarily "disprove the other" - if your talking a purely fundamentalist view (the earth is only 6000 years old) then yes, you're right...but that isn't intelligent design is it? I thought intelligent design is simply allowing for the possibility of a creator. Why are so many people in the secular world afraid of that??? Have an open mind people. Evolution and Creation can co-exist despite what certain "christians" will tell you.
No, evolution removes the need for a creator to explain the diversity and complexity of life. You may believe in a creator and accept evolution, but the creator is superfluous.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:03 PM   #69
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It's called "evolutionary creationism," or "theistic evolution." It's the scientific Theory of Evolution with a "...but it was created by God" suffix appended to it.

In other words, there's no need to teach anything but science in a science class.
Exactly, I would put myself in the "theistic evolution" category. As you said, nothing but science should be taught in, wait for it...science.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:36 PM   #70
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Going along the theistic evolution route, what justifies the assertion that God created evolution?

Natural selection is a property of replication, heritable variation and differential survival; a process that will occur wherever those preconditions are met (I would suppose that would include other possible worlds too). Evolution doesn't need a creator, it is an emergent property of systems that meet those preconditions; those preconditions do not necessarily need a creator - although that comes to questions about the origin of universes and worlds which are beyond the purview of science at this point in time.

I respect that unlike other creationists the theistic evolution approach abides by the NOMA concept and becomes a matter of personal faith, but I can't help feeling that it relegates God to a first cause that is irrelevant in our day to day lives; what differentiates that sort of belief system from pantheism or deism?
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:21 PM   #71
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These threads never disappoint!

Okay, how do you people feel about politicians taking their oath of office on other than the Bible. Like, for example, the Qur'an? Or, would you ever vote for an atheist president?

Best,
Jason
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:22 PM   #72
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I want to see them sworn in with the Jefferson Bible.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:27 PM   #73
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Going along the theistic evolution route, what justifies the assertion that God created evolution?

Natural selection is a property of replication, heritable variation and differential survival; a process that will occur wherever those preconditions are met (I would suppose that would include other possible worlds too). Evolution doesn't need a creator, it is an emergent property of systems that meet those preconditions; those preconditions do not necessarily need a creator - although that comes to questions about the origin of universes and worlds which are beyond the purview of science at this point in time.

I respect that unlike other creationists the theistic evolution approach abides by the NOMA concept and becomes a matter of personal faith, but I can't help feeling that it relegates God to a first cause that is irrelevant in our day to day lives; what differentiates that sort of belief system from pantheism or deism?
I suppose since we're coming at this from 2 different angles it would be hard to really understand the meat of each others points of view. I guess the simplest way I can explain it, is that I believe that anything that's been created has to have a Creator. I don't see how any of the processes of science can function if they weren't created. I don't believe things exist on their own. As a Christian, I believe that it was God created evolution, natural selection, and any other process that shapes the earth and it's processes. Of course, this wouldn't really make much sense to your worldview, which is perfectly fine. This where faith and reason meet for me. Also, you should be applauding me for typing out a serious response while listening to "Erotica" by Madonna.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:29 PM   #74
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I'm going to quote a scene from the West Wing because, sadly, no real politician has, to my knowledge, said anything like this publicly. This is from a scene in the series' final season in which Republican presidential candidate Arnold Vinick says the following to reporters when a line of questioning about religion comes up:

"I don't see how we can have a separation of church and state in this government if you have to pass a religious test to get in this government. And I want to warn everyone in the press and all the voters out there. If you demand expressions of religious faith from politicians, you are just begging to be lied to. They won't all lie to you, but a lot of them will, and it'll be the easiest lie they ever had to tell to get your votes. So, every day until the end of this campaign, I'll answer any question anyone has on government. But if you have a question on religion, please, go to church. Thank you."

That is the truth.

When people still say Obama is a Muslim, I get angry, not for one reason, but for two. One is the obvious - he is clearly not a Muslim, and those who say he is are choosing to be ignorant. But the other is this: What if he was Muslim? Or what if he was Jewish? Or what if he was an Atheist? Or what if he was Agnostic? Why should that prevent him from being a good president? Why is it so hard for us, as a society, to accept a president who isn't Christian? That doesn't seem very secular to me.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:34 PM   #75
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I honestly don't know what I believe anymore. Life has fucked me in the head and shaken me to the core. I'm actually pretty uncomfortable with that. I'd love to talk to somebody about it, but I've no idea who to go to. I don't want someone imposing beliefs on me, I'd just like some assistance sorting things out.

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These threads never disappoint!

Okay, how do you people feel about politicians taking their oath of office on other than the Bible. Like, for example, the Qur'an? Or, would you ever vote for an atheist president?

Best,
Jason
My vote is always one on policy and platform. I couldn't care less about someone's personal life.
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