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Old 10-10-2009, 02:36 PM   #31
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The HDI is a nice tool to compare standards of living, but when it comes down to it standard of living is made up by more than just figures.
I guess I should tell my Moroccan friend that he could as well move over to Iraq and study there. He wouldn't feel a difference.
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:23 AM   #32
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The HDI is a nice tool to compare standards of living, but when it comes down to it standard of living is made up by more than just figures.
I guess I should tell my Moroccan friend that he could as well move over to Iraq and study there. He wouldn't feel a difference.
I think these results are good and very hopeful for Iraq. I find it strange that no one here expresses anything positive about the results.

Its more accurate to use objective facts than public perceptions based on slanted TV news coverage when making comparisons. Its an undeniable fact that Iraq is improving and is doing far better than many people percieve it to be.

People once said that Bosnia would be a bloodbath that would go on for decades and could not be solved with foreign military intervention. Lets take a look at Bosnia today:

Education: 0.874
Health: 0.834
Wealth: 0.726

HDI: 0.811

Bosnia is at #76, right behind Brazil at #75.

Provided Iraq continues to grow more stable, it has a very bright future. There few countries in the world that are blessed with as many natural resources as Iraq. If Saddam had not been in charge of Iraq for 25 years, and a responsible government more concerned with building up Iraqi society than stealing other countries oil reserves through invasions had been in power, then Iraq could very well have been one of the richest countries in the region and perhaps the world. Iraq has the worlds 2nd largest oil reserves and unlike its neighbors, much of it has gone untapped do to all the conflicts and the now archaic infrustructure for extracting oil. It will take time for Iraq to rebuild and achieve its true potential. But given the chance, it has opportunities that most other developing countries don't have.
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Old 10-11-2009, 06:56 AM   #33
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Yes, it is very positive and a hopeful thing for the country. I rather object to making this comparison to Morocco in such a way.
I know that for example the north of Iraq enjoys great stability and peace. But still you have huge refugee camps and areas where it's still all but safe. All things you don't see in Morocco. So I would say a Moroccan reading that his country should be the same as Iraq, just because the clean figures of the HDI say so, would probably feel slightly offended, to say the least.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:41 AM   #34
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i had a wonderful 10 day trip to Morocco in february of 2001. traveled all over, ate wonderful food, did a camping trip into the Sahara. loved it.

i guess i can do the same thing in Iraq now!
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:56 PM   #35
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i had a wonderful 10 day trip to Morocco in february of 2001. traveled all over, ate wonderful food, did a camping trip into the Sahara. loved it.

i guess i can do the same thing in Iraq now!
actually, i'm sure you could. there is just the added excitement of car bombs and kidnappings.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:08 PM   #36
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I think these results are good and very hopeful for Iraq. I find it strange that no one here expresses anything positive about the results.
Could it be because the statistics you are mouthing off are utterly meaningless without providing the same statistics under Saddam's rule, so that we can adjudge for ourselves whether Iraq is now better off than back then, or rather (as I suspect) that Iraq has improved slightly recently after having had its infrastructure destroyed by the forces of invasion. Not under sanctions era Saddam either, you'd have to go back to the early 1990s or earlier for the comparison to be in any way valid.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:11 PM   #37
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Yes, it is very positive and a hopeful thing for the country. I rather object to making this comparison to Morocco in such a way.
I know that for example the north of Iraq enjoys great stability and peace. But still you have huge refugee camps and areas where it's still all but safe. All things you don't see in Morocco. So I would say a Moroccan reading that his country should be the same as Iraq, just because the clean figures of the HDI say so, would probably feel slightly offended, to say the least.
Strongbow also previously alleged that the violence in Iraq was no worse than in Northern Ireland - while neglecting to mention that the year he picked for his comparison was the worst year recorded during the troubles for Northern Ireland violence.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:33 PM   #38
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Strongbow also previously alleged that the violence in Iraq was no worse than in Northern Ireland - while neglecting to mention that the year he picked for his comparison was the worst year recorded during the troubles for Northern Ireland violence.
Where did I mention that? If thats so, please site it instead of imagining or pretending that is what someone else said.

I recall mentioning that the British military lost more troops in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s, than they lost Iraq in the 00s and thats a hard indisuputable fact.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:09 PM   #39
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Could it be because the statistics you are mouthing off are utterly meaningless without providing the same statistics under Saddam's rule, so that we can adjudge for ourselves whether Iraq is now better off than back then, or rather (as I suspect) that Iraq has improved slightly recently after having had its infrastructure destroyed by the forces of invasion.
Well, clearly the statistics are not meaningless and show accurately where Iraq currently is compared to other nations.

There are not many accurate economic or welfare statistics from the Saddam era except for GDP. The Saddam era was characterized by the infusion of resources into the sunni area's especially after Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and the placing of international sanctions on Iraq. After the 1991 Gulf War the Shia and Kurdish area's were largely neglected. International sanctions on Iraq for many years were tight and did a lot of damage to the country. Its only the last few years of Saddam's time in power that the sanctions regime started to fall apart.

The end of international sanctions brought great relief and resources to many area's in southern Iraq that had been denied humanitarian aid while Saddam was in power. On the other hand, area's in the Sunni majority provinces no longer recieve the priority that they once did under Saddam, in addition, the majority of the fighting after the invasion occured in the Sunni majority area's.

Much of Iraq's infrastructure was already destroyed or severely neglected by the time of the US invasion in 2003, especially area's in southern Iraq. Saddam murdered over 1.7 million people while he was in power through his invasion and attempts to sieze Kuzistan in Iran, his attacks on Kurds including the 1 hour slaughter of 5,000 of them in a sarin gas attack.
Saddam then invaded Kuwait, annexed the country and launched attacks on Saudi Arabia and Israel. He launched Ballistic missiles randomly in downtown populated area's of Saudi and Israel cities forcing the entire population to put on protective mask and seek shelter. He then torched oil fields in Kuwait, flooded the Persian Gulf with oil from the refinery's on the coast causing the worst environmental disaster in the history of the region. All the while, his actions and military moves threatened the security of Persian Gulf oil supply vital to the life of the global economy. Saddam used WMD more times than any leader in history. Despite not finding actual weapons after the 2003 invasion, program related activities for WMD were found that violated the UN Ceacefire agreement and resolutions. In addition, thousands of stocks of WMD remained unaccounted for by Saddam in violation of the ceacefire agreement and resolutions. If this was not enough, Saddam murdered and tortured thousands of his own citizens.

By any reasonable measure, even without accurate life expectancy and education figures from the Saddam era, its rather obvious that Iraq today without Saddam is much better off. The murder rate in Iraq has dropped below the richest country on the planet, the United States. Iraq is no longer ruled by a cruel dictatorship that is investing the countries wealth in unnecessary military and foreign adventures. It is and understatement to say that Iraq today is better off without Saddam.

If you would like to make a case for Saddam go ahead. But your not going to find much support among Iraqi's for that in 2009.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:16 PM   #40
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actually, i'm sure you could. there is just the added excitement of car bombs and kidnappings.
Those things happen in Israel, a first world country ranked in the top 30.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:24 PM   #41
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i had a wonderful 10 day trip to Morocco in february of 2001. traveled all over, ate wonderful food, did a camping trip into the Sahara. loved it.

i guess i can do the same thing in Iraq now!
Well, many people have already done the same thing in Iraq. Some US hikers in Iraq recently were having a good time but unfortunately crossed the border into Iran on accident which is where their troubles started.

Again, the point I'm making is based on objective facts. Your assumption is based on past news coverage.

Another objective fact is that the civilian murder rate in Iraq has now dropped below that of the United States. 96 civilians were murdered in Iraq in various acts of violance in September 2009. Over the same period in the United States, an average of 1,350 people were murdered. Even though the United States is 10 times larger than Iraq, the murder rate after adjusting for population is clearly higher in the United States.

Plus, when you look at the murder rate in Detroit, Washington DC, and Atlanta, the difference with Iraq becomes even wider.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:30 PM   #42
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Yes, it is very positive and a hopeful thing for the country. I rather object to making this comparison to Morocco in such a way.
Well, the UNDP certainly does not object in making the comparison, at least when it comes to life expectancy and education.

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I know that for example the north of Iraq enjoys great stability and peace.
Actually, this is the part of Iraq where there is still some significant tension and violence around Mosul and Kirkuk. Plus, the "pure" Kurdish area's only represent about 10% of the country.

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But still you have huge refugee camps and areas where it's still all but safe.
Only 96 civilians were murdered across Iraq in September compared to an average of 1,350 in the United States for that same time period. I also don't see any listing of attacks or murders in refugee camps for September 2009.

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All things you don't see in Morocco.
Are you claiming that there are no area's of poverty in Morocco or people that find themselves in the same situations that a refugee would? Are you claiming that every part of Morocco is safe?

I'm sure there are things that happen in the United States that you won't see in Morocco either. It does not change the fact that overall, the United States has a higher standard of living than Morocco.

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So I would say a Moroccan reading that his country should be the same as Iraq, just because the clean figures of the HDI say so, would probably feel slightly offended, to say the least.
Or maybe they would agree. One of the greatest disparities that puts Iraq ahead of Morocco is the education level. The literacy rate in Morocco is lower than Iraq. Its just a fact. Instead of being offended, I'm sure many Moroccans would agree and would like to see more done to improve the education level in their country.

In addition, I'm sure most educated Moroccans are aware of Iraq's much greater possession of natural resources and know its only a matter of time before Iraq's GDP figures start to jump way ahead of Morrocco's.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:35 PM   #43
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Those things happen in Israel, a first world country ranked in the top 30.
and mcdonalds has served billions.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:03 PM   #44
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and mcdonalds has served billions.
I think its important to point out that Iraq's level of violence in the fall 2009 is much lower than it has been in the past. Its murder rate in September was lower than that of the United States. There continue to be some high profile bombing attacks, but even a first world country like Israel has that from time to time.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:26 PM   #45
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after having 150,000+ troops, give or take, on the ground for over 6 years, after 4,500+ american deaths in Iraq, after a trillion dollars spent ... this is the best Iraq can do? the country was cherry-picked for invasion precisely because (among many reasons) it's infrastructure was quite good, the education system was particularly good, and it was a reasonably "advanced" nation in comparison to it's neighbors, not to mention it was floating on a sea of oil. pretty crappy ROI it seems.

i wonder what a trillion dollars would have done for the inner cities of Detroit, DC, New Orleans, Memphis ...
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