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Old 07-26-2011, 01:31 PM   #16
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He gave amnesty to how many illegal citizens? And part of his reasoning was so that they had the opportunity to earn.

It's a commonly held belief that he granted amnesty to those illegal citizens to provide for more cheap labor for employers.


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Reagan cut taxes in 1981, but then raised them in 4 other times. He raised them in 1983 to pay for Social Security and Medicare.

While he did raise taxes eleven times, all the tax raises together only managed to eat up about half of the effects of his first tax cut. I'm can't find any documentation about the reasons for the tax increases, so I'll take your word for that. I was nowhere close to even being alive back then, so I have no idea


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You need to learn a little more about Reagan. The real Reagan, not his myth. So if what you said is true, Reagan is a socialist by your definition.
What exactly did I portay my definitions of socialism to be, in your opinion?


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Now look at these numbers closely and tell me honestly if you believe they tell the whole story?

Wow, look at those Reagan numbers... Where are Clinton's numbers?
I'm not sure it does. But what exactly do you think is ignored by those numbers?

I chose not to list the Clinton numbers, because we were only discussing Reagan and the Bush's at the time, but Clinton's numbers were absolutely extraordinary: -9.7%!
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:39 PM   #17
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What exactly did I portay my definitions of socialism to be, in your opinion?
Um, your first post in this thread, that's what started this whole discussion.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:42 PM   #18
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Well then, yes. I believe that feeling that the government is the sole provider for the "rights" listed at the beginning of this post is somewhat socialistic.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:47 PM   #19
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I'm not sure it does. But what exactly do you think is ignored by those numbers?

I chose not to list the Clinton numbers, because we were only discussing Reagan and the Bush's at the time, but Clinton's numbers were absolutely extraordinary: -9.7%!
You equate spending with socialism, so why don't reagan's high numbers bother you?

I'm just trying to understand your, and the right's inconsistency?
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:49 PM   #20
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Well then, yes. I believe that feeling that the government is the sole provider for the "rights" listed at the beginning of this post is somewhat socialistic.
Now you're changing your tune. There was NO mention of 'sole' provider.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:57 PM   #21
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Now you're changing your tune. There was NO mention of 'sole' provider.
With the list being compared to the Bill of Rights, I inferred it to have a direct connection with the rights being supplied by the government. Sorry if i failed to explain my thinking fully, or if i misinterpreted the nature of the first post.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:24 PM   #22
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Those right$ are nice but in order to achieve them you need to pay for them via taxation of other profitable enterprises and individuals. If an economic downturn occurs it means you can't pay for the particular right or it has to be reduced to some level recipients don't like it makes that right hard to be inalienable. Maybe the taxpayers should have a right that their money is spent properly and that budgets have to be balanced. If taxes had to go up more often (and sooner) instead of relying on borrowing the public would be more skeptical of benefit increases.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:39 PM   #23
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With the list being compared to the Bill of Rights, I inferred it to have a direct connection with the rights being supplied by the government.
Does the government supply your gun, or just your right to own?
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:42 PM   #24
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The right to own a gun, and the right to make a certain salary are completely and totally different.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:55 PM   #25
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The right to own a gun, and the right to make a certain salary are completely and totally different.
You are reading FAR too much into these quotes. Where is the dollar amount salary stated?

If some on the right would spend as much energy studying context and history that you do on trying to find socialism and communism where it doesn't exist we wouldn't be where we are today.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:00 PM   #26
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"The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation"

Whether or not it states a dollar amount salary, it does imply a guaranteed level of economic prosperity.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:07 PM   #27
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"The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation"

Whether or not it states a dollar amount salary, it does imply a guaranteed level of economic prosperity.
ADEQUATE food, ADEQUATE clothing, ADEQUATE recreation. So in order to not be socialist a government should butt out of all employment regulations and allow for naked, starving servitude?

Seriously? And we wonder why we're here?
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:21 PM   #28
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ADEQUATE food, ADEQUATE clothing, ADEQUATE recreation. So in order to not be socialist a government should butt out of all employment regulations and allow for naked, starving servitude?

Seriously? And we wonder why we're here?
And here's where Liberals and Conservatives differ: I don't think there's any possible way for the government to supply people with an acceptable level of life for any significant period of time. Private enterprise, initiative, and hard work is the only way to make absolutely sure to procure that for oneself. The more government is involved in granting everyone a similar standard of living, the lower that similar standard is.

Now I understand that there's probably no way we'll ever agree on this, because I think we both come very opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, but I'm just trying to explain that it's not that I'm AGAINST these rights. Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Convservatives, me, you --- we ALL can agree that everyone should have the right to have the ability to live in an acceptable, comfortable manner. We just disagree on the best way of providing it. Can we agree on that?
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:49 PM   #29
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No one said anything about 'supplying' the means. You keep twisting words, is this what you mean by idealogical spectrum? If so you're right, I don't want to twist words.

But a government can and should provide the regulations that bar servitude.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:53 PM   #30
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If the government leaves everyone in "starving, naked servitude" as you so quaintly put it, by butting out, it is implied that the government is needed to supply these things. I'm tired of this debate though, because you just want to argue.
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