Arab Man Convicted Of "Rape By Deception" For Pretending To Be Jewish - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-22-2010, 09:59 AM   #1
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Arab Man Convicted Of "Rape By Deception" For Pretending To Be Jewish

Huffington Post

An Israeli man of Arab descent has been convicted of rape after allegedly duping a Jewish woman into having consensual sex with him.

30-year-old Sabbar Kashur was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after a Jerusalem court ruled he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman, Kashur, an Arab living in East Jerusalem, introduced himself in September 2008 as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship.

After the two met outside of a local grocery store, they had consensual sex shortly thereafter in a nearby building. When she found out that Kashur was Arab and not Jewish, the woman filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault. Those claims were later changed to a formal charge of rape by deception as the result of a plea bargain arrangement.

Judge Zvi Segal ruled that although not "a classical rape by force," Kashur had pursued the relationship through deception and under false pretenses -- and the woman would not have consented otherwise. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," Segal wrote in the ruling.

According to Haaretz, Kashur is vowing to appeal, and has fired back by calling the ruling "racist."

"If I were Jewish, they wouldn't have even questioned me," he said. "That's not called rape. I didn't rape her in the forest and throw her away naked. She agreed to everything that happened."

Meanwhile, the case has divided other Israeli legal experts. Elkana Laist of the Public Defender's Office told Haaertz the ruling was "paternalistic towards women," and said the Jerusalem District Court had "open[ed] the door to a rape conviction every time a person lies regarding details of his identity . . . that approach is not accepted around the world, either."

Dana Pugach, head of the Noga Center for Victims of Crime, felt differently. "It is a person's right to have sexual relations with a person knowing the facts about those characteristics. I see no difference between impersonating a Jew if you are an Arab and a wealthy pilot when you are penniless, if those are relevant characteristics to the decision to have sex."



Completely irrelevant compared to the subject matter-but can someone fix the typo in my topic line? Thanks.
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:43 AM   #2
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I don't know about this. What if this was the United States and the woman was white and she later found out the man she was with was part black when she thought he was "totally white." They used to have a thing called the "one-drop" rule here.

I'm just not sure how I feel about the whole idea of "rape by deception." The "whole if I had known X,Y,or Z I wouldn't have had sex with him (or her)" sounds less like rape and more like buyer's remorse.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:20 AM   #3
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I'd say the guy was guilty of deception, but applying "rape" to this makes me really uncomfortable.

If I have consensual sex with a guy who tells me he's a doctor, and then I find out he's a gas station attendant, is that rape, too? NO.

This just reaks of racism.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:25 AM   #4
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Absolutely ridiculous. I did a quick read of it and assumed it happened in one of the Muslim countries.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:26 AM   #5
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Sorry, it doesn't fly with me. The sex was consensual, so it cannot be rape unless there is some other statutory reason like she is a minor. I defer to the statutes that define rape and lying isn't one of them.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:13 PM   #6
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introduced himself in September 2008 as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship.

After the two met outside of a local grocery store, they had consensual sex shortly thereafter in a nearby building.
If naivete were a crime she'd be in serious trouble now. But this rape? No way! He certainly didn't do the right thing, but it's going too far to make this a crime.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:29 PM   #7
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Is it criminal deception only if the alleged victim subjectively believes that he/she they were deceived into believing that their sex partner wasn't as desirable as believed or represented to be? Does it work in the opposite direction?

That is, for example, what if he said to her, "You know, I'm just an average guy.". Later she learns that he has a genius IQ, has five gold Olympic medals, has royal lineage, and is a self-made billionaire? Is he still going to jail for "rape by deception"?
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:47 PM   #8
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Is it criminal deception only if the alleged victim subjectively believes that he/she they were deceived into believing that their sex partner wasn't as desirable as believed or represented to be? Does it work in the opposite direction?

That is, for example, what if he said to her, "You know, I'm just an average guy.". Later she learns that he has a genius IQ, has five gold Olympic medals, has royal lineage, and is a self-made billionaire? Is he still going to jail for "rape by deception"?
I suppose it would if she would never have consented to have sex with anyone who wasn't just an average guy.
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Old 07-22-2010, 02:51 PM   #9
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This is a very complex and complicated case.

Personally, I do not think it is racist. It stands to reason that if the woman had a choice whether to have sex with a Jewish man or with an Arab man then obviously she would have chosen the Jewish man - however, in this case, the choice was taken away from her by the man misrepresenting himself.

He had to have known that if he had identified himself as an Arab, it is very difficult to believe that woman would have willingly have sex with him - again, not out of racism but because Jews tend to go with Jews and Arabs with Arabs - just like anywhere else in the world. Race has nothing to do with it.

It is obvious to me that the man's goal was strictly to have sex with the woman and therefore used deception to get her into bed where she would have otherwise refused if she had known that he was an Arab - again, not out of racism.

For example:
If I'm a very poor secretary living on welfare and one day I come to you claiming to be heiress to a very large fortune and ask you to lend me money in anticipation of a large inheritance that I'm due to receive, and I assure you of who I am and that you will be paid back every dime, you may or may not be inclined to lend me the money but you would CERTAINLY be less inclined to lend me money if you knew that I was a poor secretary on welfare with no means to repay you. However, I do not give you that choice because right from the onset I tell you that I'm an heiress to get you to lend me the money.

when you lend me the money and then discover who I really am, then you for sure would feel deceived and you would take me to court to get your money back, and it would be considered stealing even if you willingly gave me the money.

I contend that the only reason she had sex with this man is because he told her he was single and Jewish. Therefore, the choice was not hers to make and therefore there was deceit which, ultimately, leads to the charge of rape.
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Old 07-22-2010, 03:41 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
It stands to reason that if the woman had a choice whether to have sex with a Jewish man or with an Arab man then obviously she would have chosen the Jewish man
The conflict between radical muslims/Palestinians and Israelis notwithstanding, if that's not racist, then I don't know what.

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He had to have known that if he had identified himself as an Arab, it is very difficult to believe that woman would have willingly have sex with him - again, not out of racism but because Jews tend to go with Jews and Arabs with Arabs - just like anywhere else in the world. Race has nothing to do with it.
In the western world, which Israel likes to be part of, that is most certainly often the case and neither race nor religion is a hinderance except, well, you are racist or intolerant of other religions.

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It is obvious to me that the man's goal was strictly to have sex with the woman and therefore used deception to get her into bed
Quite true
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where she would have otherwise refused if she had known that he was an Arab - again, not out of racism.
Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true. While he did decept her, and that was certainly unjust, it's neither rape nor is her reasoning anything but racist. She has a legitimate argument that he lied to her, and that she would've refused had she known he was most certainly not looking for a serious, committed relationship then she'd have my full understanding. But she sued him for the fact that he lied about his religion/ethnicity.

Quote:
For example:
If I'm a very poor secretary living on welfare and one day I come to you claiming to be heiress to a very large fortune and ask you to lend me money in anticipation of a large inheritance that I'm due to receive, and I assure you of who I am and that you will be paid back every dime, you may or may not be inclined to lend me the money but you would CERTAINLY be less inclined to lend me money if you knew that I was a poor secretary on welfare with no means to repay you. However, I do not give you that choice because right from the onset I tell you that I'm an heiress to get you to lend me the money.
What does the Nigeria connection have to do with all of this?

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when you lend me the money and then discover who I really am, then you for sure would feel deceived and you would take me to court to get your money back, and it would be considered stealing even if you willingly gave me the money.
Only if you were not going to give it back to me. But I should be damned for falling for this old trick.

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I contend that the only reason she had sex with this man is because he told her he was single and Jewish. Therefore, the choice was not hers to make and therefore there was deceit which, ultimately, leads to the charge of rape.
It totally was, she could just have said: "He, I just met you outside this store. You seem nice to me, and maybe we can get something going here. But if this is really meant to be a serious relationship, shouldn't we maybe meet for a dinner and getting to know each other a little better instead of going to the next best building to have sex?" You don't have a choice only because the stranger you meet outside the grocery story fits two rather broad and meaningless criteria?

Her argument against a long-term relationship would be understandable, then also concerning their different religions. That's something that is not always going to work out, especially if the religions are that different. So if she had said, "Oh well, you are a nice guy but I don't see this going to work out. Our ways of life are just too different.", it would be understandable. I would have my doubts with a person that was strongly religious. But was she really going to go for that in the first place? It more sounds like a one-night-stand and afterwards she was shocked because this guy turned out to be an Arab.
It's not justifying what he did, and the intention he had. But it's questionable whether it constitutes rape.
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
This is a very complex and complicated case.
Actually it's not.
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Personally, I do not think it is racist. It stands to reason that if the woman had a choice whether to have sex with a Jewish man or with an Arab man then obviously she would have chosen the Jewish man - however, in this case, the choice was taken away from her by the man misrepresenting himself.

He had to have known that if he had identified himself as an Arab, it is very difficult to believe that woman would have willingly have sex with him - again, not out of racism but because Jews tend to go with Jews and Arabs with Arabs - just like anywhere else in the world. Race has nothing to do with it.
Just because this type of discrimination is common where you live it doesn't mean it's not racist.

She was willing to have sex with a complete stranger, do you really think the "Jews tend to go with Jews" thing is really an excuse?

The fact that you can't see this for what it is scares me...
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:40 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
This is a very complex and complicated case.
Not really, it's fairly straightforward. Defenders of Israel like to make claims about what a modern, secular nation it is. This case proves it isn't - it's a theocracy where citizens of one religion are favoured over another.
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:07 PM   #13
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Sorry, it doesn't fly with me. The sex was consensual, so it cannot be rape unless there is some other statutory reason like she is a minor.
Not necessarily true - consent can be vitiated by fraud. I have no idea what the statutory language or Israeli caselaw are but it seems like they are relying on this type of principle here.
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:15 PM   #14
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Huh, that's interesting; I hadn't heard of that.
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:24 PM   #15
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I feel like I want to reply to many of the posts in here

just don't have the time

If the man were Jewish and represented himself to be single, but she later found out he was married, would he be in jail for rape? would he even have been charged?
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