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Old 07-22-2010, 05:32 PM   #16
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The articles I've read place more emphasis on the fact that he lied about his religion rather than lying about being married.

Did the woman take equal offense at both lies? If he had just lied about being married, would she have filed charges?

He was convicted of "rape by deception." I'm assuming the court didn't care what he lied about, just that he used deception ... did the woman feel the same, or is the media (and the man, based on his quote) playing up the religious angle?
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:36 PM   #17
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I don't believe it is right to lie to someone to have sex

do we lable rape? each time someone has consensual sex wtih someone
and later find out there was a misrepresentation?
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
I don't believe it is right to lie to someone to have sex

do we lable rape? each time someone has consensual sex wtih someone
and later find out there was a misrepresentation?
I have to admit that I actually don't know much about this area of law. It's been years since I've taken a torts or criminal law class and it's just never been something that's interested me.

I wish we had an Israeli lawyer here to tell us what the state of the law is. From what I remember, in Canada it depends on whether the misrepresentation is the factor that induced the person to consent to sex. In other words, but for THAT lie, the person would not have consented. I would think she'd have a hard time proving that.
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
I'm assuming the court didn't care what he lied about, just that he used deception ... did the woman feel the same, or is the media (and the man, based on his quote) playing up the religious angle?
Can you imagine how packed our courts would be if anyone could file rape by deception here?

What do you mean you're not rich?

What do you mean you're not related to Brad Pitt?

What do you mean you're not a swimsuit model?
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:04 PM   #20
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i remember hearing a story in the news about a case in Miami where a woman married a man who turned out to be a Cuban spy.

she sued the Cuban government for rape, because she did not consent to have sex with the man he was, she consented to have sex with the man he presented himself to be.

my guess is that forging a totally new identity requires several levels of deception -- as opposed to just slipping off your wedding ring in the hotel bar -- so perhaps that's taken into account legally.
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:18 PM   #21
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Can you imagine how packed our courts would be if anyone could file rape by deception here?

What do you mean you're not rich?

What do you mean you're not related to Brad Pitt?

What do you mean you're not a swimsuit model?
I am thinking more along with you

it is not rape

there may be cases of fraud, where fraud was used to induce someone into a contract, partnership, or relationship

the aggrieved party may be due some redress, especailly where there has been a finanical impact
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:59 PM   #22
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I know it's a little aside for a serious topic, but this issue reminded me of part of Chris Rock's standup.

"When you meet someone for the first time, you're not meeting them. You're meeting their representative. Because you can't get no one looking like you look, sounding like you sound, acting like you act. You've got to lie to get somebody."

Fast forward to about 2:15

YouTube - Episode 27:Chris Rock Women and lies

(I should point out, this clip NSFW or the ears of the young folk.)
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:53 PM   #23
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I'd say the guy was guilty of deception, but applying "rape" to this makes me really uncomfortable.

If I have consensual sex with a guy who tells me he's a doctor, and then I find out he's a gas station attendant, is that rape, too? NO.

This just reaks of racism.
I think so too. A liar maybe, rapist no.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:20 AM   #24
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I feel like I want to reply to many of the posts in here

just don't have the time

If the man were Jewish and represented himself to be single, but she later found out he was married, would he be in jail for rape? would he even have been charged?
I'm willing to bet the answer is no. If it really is enshrined in Israeli law that deception based on religion/ethnicity specifically qualifies as rape (which I would be surprised to find that it does) then the law itself is racist. It'd be just like a law in the old South stating that if a man who has a certain percentage of black blood lies about it in order to sleep with a white woman then it is "rape by deception."
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:07 AM   #25
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This reminds me of women/men who dye their hair. Omg I thought you were a natural blonde !!!

It sounds like racism to me.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:52 AM   #26
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I found this article through Google, don't know what happened with the bill


Feb 28, 2008


(UWIRE.com) This story was written by Johanna Kaiser, The Daily Free Press


Massachusetts legislators considered a bill Wednesday that would close a loophole in rape laws to allow prosecutors to bring charges against people who gain a victim's consent to sex through deception.

Under current law, rape in Massachusetts can only be prosecuted if the act involves force and non-consent. The law does not protect victims who have been intentionally duped into having sex without force or violence.

"There is a myth that rape only happens in a dark alley by a stranger -- this is not true," said Rep. Peter Koutoujian.

Without the new legislation, police and prosecutors are virtually helpless when someone reports a rape that occurred because the victim was deceived or tricked into consenting. Legislators cited a case in western Massachusetts in which a woman consented to intercourse with her boyfriend's brother because he claimed to be the woman's boyfriend.

In another case of "fraud" rape, a lab technician posed as a medical doctor and sexually assaulted a woman. Legislators said they hope changing the law will prevent future rapes and bring those guilty of any form of rape to justice.

"The intent of the crime is the same, and so the punishment should be the same," Koutoujian said. "We not only have the judicial mandate to file this legislation, we have a moral obligation."

Rape by deception is just as damaging and illegal as rape by force, said Middlesex County District Attorney Gerry Leone.

"We have always known that 'No means no,' and the current law allows us to effectively prosecute those cases," Leone said. "What this bill makes clear is that you cannot deceive or defraud a victim into saying yes."

California and Tennessee already have "rape by fraud" legislation. If the law passes here, a common concern is that the legislation's vague language regarding deception will result in women who have been seduced by men posing as someone else or claiming to be unmarried filing rape charges.

Both Leone and Worcester County District Attorney Joe Early said the new legislation is not open to this misinterpretation. They said though the legislation pertains to a small percentage of cases, any accusation of rape is seriously investigated and considered by prosecutors before charges are filed.

The district attorneys said the law leaves room for future changes based on what society considers to be rape.

Mary Lauby, executive director of Jane Doe Inc. -- an organization which oversees the state coalition of rape crisis centers and domestic violence programs -- said rapists who deceive their victims operate by deliberately creating an environment of trust.

She said a person's intentions determine whether criminal charges apply to a case because the proposed law aims to stop sociopaths who repeatedly rape by deception - not people who are simply boasting to seduce someone.

"Our laws cannot start from a place only considering defendant rights," Lauby said. "It is only the victim who can say if rape is committed."
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:58 AM   #27
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In Israel

Jurists say Arab's rape conviction sets dangerous precedent - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

"In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.

High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."

Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.

In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud. "
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:49 AM   #28
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If this case hasn't been misrepresented in the media, there is so much to go against and she sued him because he was Arab instead of a Jew?

Would get a bit philosophical, but how reasonable is that woman if she fell for that?
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Old 07-23-2010, 03:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
In Israel

Jurists say Arab's rape conviction sets dangerous precedent - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

"In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.

High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."

Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.

In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud. "
Well it sounds like the legal precedent for "rape by deception" in Israel is not built around race or religion, so I'd have to revise my conclusion. If they have precedent for those kinds of convictions in other circumstances then I don't think it can be fairly argued that racism is the motivator here.

It is a thorny issue, but I can imagine circumstances that set rape by deception apart from mere fraud.
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Old 07-23-2010, 04:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
"In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.
I found that last night, too.

There is something seriously wrong with labeling that rape.

The women were certainly defrauded, I don't believe they were raped, they were consenting adults choosing to engage in sex for a benefit,
that they did not receive.

I think if a person went to a barber and got a hair cut and did not pay, he should be charge with theft, theft of a service.
I think if a person went to a brothel and did not pay for sex, he also should be charged for theft. Again, theft of services, not rape.

Every time a person has consensual sex and expectations are not met,
is it rape?
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