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Old 02-22-2012, 08:56 PM   #676
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makes sense, Manhattan is a bit more expensive.

but those are good, honorable lawyers working hard to help billion-dollar corporations not pay any taxes. they're not sucking at my very own teat like those loathsome government lawyers.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:23 PM   #677
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10 of top 15 richest counties are in D.C. suburbs - WTOP.com

The new permanent ruling class.

Occupy Wall St for being clueless about who's really making out like bandits in Obama's America.

The Tea Party and the horse they rode in on for being vilified in 10 of the 15 richest counties in the country.
As a working class schlub who lives a block from Madonna, four blocks from Mike Bloomberg, and down the hall from a plumber... that new york county, aka Manhattan, isn't on that list is absolutely meaningless. Yes, we have Wall Street. We also have Washington Heights. Kinda skews the numbers a tad.

20% of Manhattan lives below the poverty line. That's about 200,000 people. Roughly the size of Arlington, Virginia.

Meanwhile the per capita income of zip code 10021 on the upper east side, about 150,000 people, is over $90,000.

So yea... I don't really like the protesters because I didn't see an end game or any sort of organization towards a goal... and pretty much accomplished not much more than making me late for work a few times.

But as far as simply protesting wealth and wealth inequality? Yea... they picked the right place.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:51 PM   #678
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but those are good, honorable lawyers working hard to help billion-dollar corporations not pay any taxes. they're not sucking at my very own teat like those loathsome government lawyers.
Yes, well who writes the loophole-laden tax codes that require corporations to hire armies of tax lawyers?
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:55 PM   #679
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You do realize that tax groups are very, very small, right? There are no armies of tax lawyers, but don't take my word for it.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:56 PM   #680
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So if I follow you, Big Government creates these loopholes precicesly so the corporations will have to hire armies of lawyers. . .

The noble corporations would NEVER lobby for these selfsame loopholes in the first place, would they.

No,of course not.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:07 PM   #681
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i don't think that all of INDY's criticisms are wrong, per se. i think a vastly simplified tax code and pension reform are two important steps to take.

i just think he's aiming at the wrong targets. your average government worker is hardly your enemy.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:21 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Irvine511
i don't think that all of INDY's criticisms are wrong, per se. i think a vastly simplified tax code and pension reform are two important steps to take.

i just think he's aiming at the wrong targets. your average government worker is hardly your enemy.
Not only that but his own tea party proudly signed an oath and fought not to change those tax loop holes.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:25 PM   #683
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So if I follow you, Big Government creates these loopholes precicesly so the corporations will have to hire armies of lawyers. . .

The noble corporations would NEVER lobby for these selfsame loopholes in the first place, would they.

No,of course not.
I mentioned the army of corporate lobbyists at the teat of government a few posts back. It's fine to be sarcastic with me but do try and keep up.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:28 PM   #684
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i think a vastly simplified tax code and pension reform are two important steps to take.
I'm going to end the evening in full agreement and on a positive note.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:59 AM   #685
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Yes, well who writes the loophole-laden tax codes that require corporations to hire armies of tax lawyers?
The people that need those loopholes.
The 'special' people, interested in it.

Whatever they pay armies of tax lawyers, they save more in those same loopholes. Cost effective. Common sense business practice.

So to specifically answer your question, it is the special interests that hire lawyers to craft legislation that is then incorporated by the politicians.

Look at the Health Care Reform bill for a perfect illustration.
Who wrote it? Republicans? Democrats? Uh, no. The Health insurance lobby wrote it - that's why it was done behind closed doors.
They said "we can digest this...and we won't fight it and we won't fight against your re-elections" and that's why it included the mandate that nobody outside of the insurance companies really wanted. It was a compromised dogshit bill and even Obama knew it.

So yeah, about having to hire "armies" of lawyers to deal with tax codes...why would they do that? Because it is to their advantage.
See: General Electric.

Why were those tax codes so advantageous to GE and not average tax payers? Because they are in bed with the same people making those loop holes and then working to effectuate them.

THIS is the problem with the whole U.S. government.
The system is already bought and paid for.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:31 AM   #686
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Corporations are people too... am I right?
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:19 PM   #687
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They are, by far, the most powerful 'people' in the United States.
Far more powerful than the measly President.
In fact you could say that they are our representative Government.

Look...I'm a free market capitalist. I truly am.
But we have to be reasonable on all fronts.
Our Government is not a true representative democracy.

And until people stop believing the partisan rhetoric (from either side) designed to keep the status quo, nothing can progress towards real change.

Capitalism isn't evil but corporatism is reality.
We need regulations and a free market.
And a government once again accountable to the people.
And by "people" I don't mean corporations.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:39 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
The people that need those loopholes.
The 'special' people, interested in it.

Whatever they pay armies of tax lawyers, they save more in those same loopholes. Cost effective. Common sense business practice.

So to specifically answer your question, it is the special interests that hire lawyers to craft legislation that is then incorporated by the politicians.

Look at the Health Care Reform bill for a perfect illustration.
Who wrote it? Republicans? Democrats? Uh, no. The Health insurance lobby wrote it - that's why it was done behind closed doors.
They said "we can digest this...and we won't fight it and we won't fight against your re-elections" and that's why it included the mandate that nobody outside of the insurance companies really wanted. It was a compromised dogshit bill and even Obama knew it.

So yeah, about having to hire "armies" of lawyers to deal with tax codes...why would they do that? Because it is to their advantage.
See: General Electric.

Why were those tax codes so advantageous to GE and not average tax payers? Because they are in bed with the same people making those loop holes and then working to effectuate them.

THIS is the problem with the whole U.S. government.
The system is already bought and paid for.
Crony capitalism 101. Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty and I agree, it has to be changed. Uniform tax codes, and lessening the governments' involvement in the economy is the only way to get corporations competing in the marketplace, rather than K street, with their dollars. the only way to slow down the building of McMansions around Washington, D.C.

The exact opposite direction this administration is taking us.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:25 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
They are, by far, the most powerful 'people' in the United States.
Far more powerful than the measly President.
In fact you could say that they are our representative Government.

Look...I'm a free market capitalist. I truly am.
But we have to be reasonable on all fronts.
Our Government is not a true representative democracy.

And until people stop believing the partisan rhetoric (from either side) designed to keep the status quo, nothing can progress towards real change.

Capitalism isn't evil but corporatism is reality.
We need regulations and a free market.
And a government once again accountable to the people.
And by "people" I don't mean corporations.


Is there anything we can do to try and get the last part of your post to be a reality? Or is it a losing battle at this point?
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:08 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
I mentioned the army of corporate lobbyists at the teat of government a few posts back. It's fine to be sarcastic with me but do try and keep up.
I'm well aware of your teats post, thank you.



My point is that you want it all to be the fault of Big Government, whereas I put more of the onus on Big Business. Big Business CREATES the teat and then sucks on it.

U2DMFan said it much better than I could:

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
The people that need those loopholes.
The 'special' people, interested in it.

Whatever they pay armies of tax lawyers, they save more in those same loopholes. Cost effective. Common sense business practice.

So to specifically answer your question, it is the special interests that hire lawyers to craft legislation that is then incorporated by the politicians.

Look at the Health Care Reform bill for a perfect illustration.
Who wrote it? Republicans? Democrats? Uh, no. The Health insurance lobby wrote it - that's why it was done behind closed doors.
They said "we can digest this...and we won't fight it and we won't fight against your re-elections" and that's why it included the mandate that nobody outside of the insurance companies really wanted. It was a compromised dogshit bill and even Obama knew it.

So yeah, about having to hire "armies" of lawyers to deal with tax codes...why would they do that? Because it is to their advantage.
See: General Electric.

Why were those tax codes so advantageous to GE and not average tax payers? Because they are in bed with the same people making those loop holes and then working to effectuate them.

THIS is the problem with the whole U.S. government.
The system is already bought and paid for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Crony capitalism 101. Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty and I agree, it has to be changed. Uniform tax codes, and lessening the governments' involvement in the economy is the only way to get corporations competing in the marketplace, rather than K street, with their dollars. the only way to slow down the building of McMansions around Washington, D.C.

The exact opposite direction this administration is taking us.
I think we're essentially on the same page. It's just obscured by a rather one-sided summation of "where the problem lies" on your part. I'm not about to believe that a President Romney or President Santorum (or a President Daniels) for that matter would go any different direction than Obama has. They're already in bed with the corporations, and they haven't even been elected yet.
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