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Old 05-22-2009, 01:38 PM   #181
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California proves this as illegal immigration costs CA taxpayers an estimated 10.5 billion a year. That's half the deficit right there.
I have a hard time believing this number. And like so many subjects you miss the nuances of this issue.

How much would it cost the tax payers to hunt them all down and deport them?

How much more would it cost tax payers when construction costs, produce, maid services, etc go up?
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:46 PM   #182
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you know what else would fill the state's treasury in CA?

legal same-sex marriage.

and legal marijuana.

all much better for everyone than off shore drilling.
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:47 PM   #183
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I have a hard time believing this number. And like so many subjects you miss the nuances of this issue.

How much would it cost the tax payers to hunt them all down and deport them?

How much more would it cost tax payers when construction costs, produce, maid services, etc go up?
No "hunting down."
Enforce the borders.
Enact laws to target and penalize businesses that hire illegals.
Turn off the magnet of free social services.

Then work on sensible controlled immigration policies that benefit the country.
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:51 PM   #184
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No "hunting down."
Enforce the borders.
Do you really think we're just sitting there saying come on through, what do you really mean by "enforce the borders"?

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Enact laws to target and penalize businesses that hire illegals.
Be ready to pay more...

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Turn off the magnet of free social services.
How do you plan on doing this?
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:03 PM   #185
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you know what else would fill the state's treasury in CA?

legal same-sex marriage.
The same could be said for multiple partner marriages could it not.

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and legal marijuana.
They say the same thing about lotteries and legalized gambling don't they? But maybe the state shouldn't legitimize or sanction what can easily become irresponsible activities just because they can fill their coffers by doing so.

But I'm open to the idea.
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all much better for everyone than off shore drilling.
Or we can continue to send dollars and oil jobs off to Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:13 PM   #186
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Do you really think we're just sitting there saying come on through, what do you really mean by "enforce the borders"?
Enforce the borders.

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Be ready to pay more...
Not in the long run but yeah, business loves the cheap labor which is why they support open border policies.

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How do you plan on doing this?
English only laws.

Federal enforcement to end the practice of sanctuary cities.

Stop floating the idea of amnesty programs .

Citizenship requirements to receive a drivers license, welfare, medicaid, food stamps, housing assistance or a public education. Crazy right?

Or are you content with our current immigration policies?
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:14 PM   #187
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The same could be said for multiple partner marriages could it not.

this dodges the actual issue at hand -- but if you'd like to make that argument, please go ahead.

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They say the same thing about lotteries and legalized gambling don't they? But maybe the state shouldn't legitimize or sanction what can easily become irresponsible activities just because they can fill their coffers by doing so.

But I'm open to the idea.

it just strikes me that the legalization of marijuana is a seems a much more human thing than deporting citizens who contribute a dramatic amount to the economy.


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Or we can continue to send dollars and oil jobs off to Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.

or we can green up the economy. just saying.
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:35 PM   #188
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or we can green up the economy. just saying.

Green energy in our lifetimes is a fantasy -- unable to produce a baseload-grid of energy because of it's fluctuations and inefficiencies and economically not feasible without massive public subsidies. A luxury no longer available to us. Which is why much of Europe is abandoning its "green dream" and building or planning nuclear power plants. Clean, reliable and inexpensive.

Which we should be doing along with using our 500 hundred year supply of coal, oil shale, natural gas, and offshore and Alaskan crude.

"Green energy," sounds nice in speeches anyway.
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:38 PM   #189
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Enforce the borders.
That's what I thought...

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Not in the long run but yeah, business loves the cheap labor which is why they support open border policies.
Yes, in the long run...

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English only laws.

Federal enforcement to end the practice of sanctuary cities.

Stop floating the idea of amnesty programs .

Citizenship requirements to receive a drivers license, welfare, medicaid, food stamps, housing assistance or a public education. Crazy right?

Or are you content with our current immigration policies?
English only laws won't do shit.

I'm not sure how you plan on getting federal enforcement to the practice of sanctuary cities. It sounds like a lot tax payer money and infringing on state's rights...

How does the idea of amnesty create a magnet? Amnesty only affects those already here...

How do you tell the third grader they can't go to school because mommy and daddy who are working their asses off don't have the proper paperwork?

You don't just let someone die because they come into the emergency room and have no insurance because they don't have the proper paperwork yet...

No, I do not think the current immigration policies are perfect but I also do not prescribe to the conservative approach which is often unempathetic and more times than not based somewhat on racism.
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:46 PM   #190
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Green energy in our lifetimes is a fantasy
I guess American Exceptionalism only lives when it's conservative thinking. I knew you guys didn't really believe in it.

Where would NASA be if they thought like this?

We have full cities powered by wind here in Texas. Anything that happens in one's lifetime, often started in someone else's lifetime. That's the problem with conservatives, they are so damn selfish when it comes to this issue. Damnitt this is the way my grandfather did it, it's the way I'm goin to do it, who cares about future generations... I won't be there.
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Old 05-22-2009, 03:43 PM   #191
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Green energy in our lifetimes is a fantasy -- unable to produce a baseload-grid of energy because of it's fluctuations and inefficiencies and economically not feasible without massive public subsidies. A luxury no longer available to us. Which is why much of Europe is abandoning its "green dream" and building or planning nuclear power plants. Clean, reliable and inexpensive.

Which we should be doing along with using our 500 hundred year supply of coal, oil shale, natural gas, and offshore and Alaskan crude.

"Green energy," sounds nice in speeches anyway.


i think you've got something mixed up -- building nuclear power plants doesn't meant that anyone's abandoning wind or solar, or building effective public transit. it means that there are many ways to tackle an issue, and i am open to a serious discussion on nuclear power. i think they are vastly safer now than in the days of Chernobyl, but i think it's silly to view them as anything other than one tool to battle the problem.

i also have a different take on fossil fuels. i think we need to rid ourselves of them, first, so we can disentangle ourselves from the morass of ancient ethnic hatreds in the Middle East. however, "offshore drilling" is a quick-fix to this situation, and it doesn't solve the fact that our cars and factories and buildings spew poison into our atmosphere and it's going to kill us. as has been noted in another thread, it's not the Earth i'm so much worried about. it's people.
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Old 05-22-2009, 03:59 PM   #192
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i think you've got something mixed up -- building nuclear power plants doesn't meant that anyone's abandoning wind or solar, or building effective public transit. it means that there are many ways to tackle an issue, and i am open to a serious discussion on nuclear power. i think they are vastly safer now than in the days of Chernobyl, but i think it's silly to view them as anything other than one tool to battle the problem.
Solar and wind are fine as a supplemental form of energy but if they were economically feasible you wouldn't need speechifying and laws... it would already be a booming industry. Instead, like ethanol, it's collapsing, propped up only by government subsides, environmental lobbyists and nincompoops in the media.

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i also have a different take on fossil fuels. i think we need to rid ourselves of them, first, so we can disentangle ourselves from the morass of ancient ethnic hatreds in the Middle East. however, "offshore drilling" is a quick-fix to this situation,
We have all that energy we need right here in this country. Energy independence is just the right leadership in Washington away.


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and it doesn't solve the fact that our cars and factories and buildings spew poison into our atmosphere and it's going to kill us. as has been noted in another thread, it's not the Earth i'm so much worried about. it's people.
People "spew" the very same poison from their lungs into the air so I guess you should be worried.
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Old 05-22-2009, 04:06 PM   #193
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Solar and wind are fine as a supplemental form of energy but if they were economically feasible you wouldn't need speechifying and laws... it would already be a booming industry. Instead, like ethanol, it's collapsing, propped up only by government subsides and environmental lobbyists.
you mean like Exxon-Mobil?


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We have all that energy we need right here in this country. Energy independence is just the right leadership in Washington away.
not long term. and it's still going to kill us.


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People "spew" the very same poison from their lungs into the air so I guess you should be worried.


if that's what you think, then i've got just the Congressman for you!


YouTube - Smokey Joe Barton On Opposing Cap & Trade: "You Can't Regulate God"


YouTube - Energy Secretary puzzled by stupid question from Rep. Joe Barton
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Old 05-22-2009, 04:21 PM   #194
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English only laws won't do shit.
Nice English.
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I'm not sure how you plan on getting federal enforcement to the practice of sanctuary cities. It sounds like a lot tax payer money and infringing on state's rights...
States can't ignore federal laws, only the federal government can do that.
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How does the idea of amnesty create a magnet? Amnesty only affects those already here...
How would the idea of a free U2 concert create an influx of people days in advance of the show.
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How do you tell the third grader they can't go to school because mommy and daddy who are working their asses off don't have the proper paperwork?
In English?
Quote:

No, I do not think the current immigration policies are perfect but I also do not prescribe to the conservative approach which is often unempathetic and more times than not based somewhat on racism.
Of course every concerned American on the issue of immigration is a racist.

Immigration traditionally meant the immigrant assimilating to his new country, not the country to the immigrant.
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Old 05-22-2009, 04:26 PM   #195
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Of course every concerned American on the issue of immigration is a racist.


or that the conservatives have just identified a new scapegoat for whatever problem? first, it was the Irish. then, on the West Coast, it was the "yellow peril." then it was the Eastern Europeans. now, it's the Mexicans.
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