Anti-Tax Tea Parties Held Across U.S. - Page 10 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-17-2009, 11:08 PM   #136
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
What we need is more technical jobs and also a corporate tax regime that competes with other countries so new companies are started and foreign investors have a motivation to invest.
I think this is a good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
I would agree that those who use tax shelters are hypocritical because they benefit from the military protection paid by others.
Military protection from whom, precisely? Who are these fearsome military foes that stand ready to attack America and its allies? Can't be Venezuela, 'cos I just saw Obama shaking hands with Chavez. As for North Korea, it is a basket case which is no threat to anyone outside its borders. That's a tragedy, but it's not our concern to interfere militarily. Russia and China? Let's get real here and try to understand realpolitik. And recognise that neither country pursues the doctrine of pre-emptive strikes even if they wished to hit the US (which they don't, it would make no rational sense. you don't pursue your debtors by killing them, unless you're a deranged pyschopath. I haven't seen much evidence that the Russian and Chinese leaders are deranged psychopaths, have you?) I don't know, maybe it's the French, but they haven't won a war since Napoleon (joke).

Now, it is probably true that the Western world will face continuing threats from 'Islamist' terrorism and that I'd argue is largely because of the manner in which the 'GWOT' has been prosecuted. But, even for those who disagree with that assessment, it has to be acknowledged that protecting US/European citizens from terrorism within the US/Europe is not a military issue but a security issue.

Anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the revelations regarding torture from Abu Ghraib and many other places and wishes to ignore the obvious implication that this will breed more terrorists is delusional.

The lessons from Northern Ireland are clear. In 1969, the shooting by state forces of 13 unarmed civilians, together with internment of elements the Catholic population held to be 'terrorist sympathisers' and, in some cases, allegations of torture of terrorist suspects (though the worst allegations, if true, were nothing like as bad, not even remotely, as what Western intelligence have revealed to be involved in the prosecution of the so-called 'Global War on Terror) fed a three decade conflict that led to the deaths of 3,000.

Turns though the neo-cons will probably be correct in their claims that Western states and cities will face an increased risk from 'Islamist' terror. Of course, we bloody well will, it was Western policies, advocated by those same neo-cons that fed it. And then, sure enough, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Heckofajob, neocons!!!

I really hope I'm wrong, but whether I am right or wrong, as I said it is a security issue to deal with this problem and not a military one.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 11:18 AM   #137
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,994
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Is that you diamond?

__________________

__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 11:59 AM   #138
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobvok View Post
I'm sure I'm spying some variants on the "giving poor homeowners loans in the 1970s caused the collapse!", (which raises the question why it took 30 years for this to happen) or the "X billion in subprime mortgages turns into 40 trillion in derivatives on Wall Street, clearly the homeowners were the problem" gambit.
Ever heard of the Community Reinvestment Act and have you heard of Bill Clinton? What about ACORN? Banks need investors to lend money. If the government is forcing more risk onto banks then investors will have to take more risk. Bankers make money by being intermediaries between borrowers and lenders. The only way to get investors to freely do that is to package investments and hide the details in the fine print. So many people thought they had "safe" investments when they didn't. Couple the fact that rating agencies aren't independent and you get what happened. Of course corporate members of the private sector should have said NO and fight back but the human tendency is to listen to government and to avoid pressure tactics. The subordinates at work will listen to their bosses and not ethically fight back so the rot continues on to the investor.

The problem we have is when government fails the solution the public seems to get is that we need MORE government. How come more socialist governments got into the same problems the U.S. did despite having more government? Eg. Britain.

The other part of the problem is political interference in monetary policies. There were plenty of times where raising interest rates would be necessary to stave off inflation but instead it was ignored and even the core CPI excluded energy, and food to mask the true inflation.

Core inflation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did Greenspan really follow Friedman economics or did he follow Neo-Keynesian economics? The past 20 years has seen a huge credit availability spike that has given a false sense that we were improving our standard of living yet when inflation is taken into account the results were unimpressive. Some sectors of society had a purchase power decrease. We need to focus on production and investment. People are uncomfortable now because of the huge debtload they have. Until they pay down the personal debt to feel better they won't feel better.

Finally some big cheese CEO gets it. This doesn't just apply to Canada:

Canadians should save, not spend: ING Canada CEO

Quote:
Aceto worries Canadians aren't saving enough.

In the last five years the Canadian savings rate averaged around 2.5 per cent, Aceto said. In the previous five years, it was about five per cent, and in the 35 years before that it was almost 15 per cent.

The savings rate is measured as a percentage of disposable income, which is income from all sources less deductions -- tax, employment insurance and Canada Pension Plan -- made to the government. In British Columbia the savings rate has been negative since at least 1998.

That needs to increase so Canadians can get their confidence back, Aceto said. And that means Canadians shouldn't be spending to help stimulate the economy as some politicians are suggesting.
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 12:09 PM   #139
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Financeguy,

you said
Quote:
Now, it is probably true that the Western world will face continuing threats from 'Islamist' terrorism and that I'd argue is largely because of the manner in which the 'GWOT' has been prosecuted
I don't really buy this. There is too much history of attacks and an admission of motive behind the attacks, that have nothing to do with the prosecution of GWOT.

In fact, my experience with the Iraqi leadership (and definitely not PRO-US) is that they respect our approach (after the invasion -- most of them wish not to be occupied of course) and by approach I mean, the attitude of the boots on the ground conducting operations, not the Administration. Basically, there is a mutual understand, and a joint partnership of getting rid of the foreign fighters, rebuilding the country, and pressing forward.

For the past 3 years, the prosecution of GWOT has been a joint-venture between the people of Iraq/Afghanistan and the coalition or NATO forces against those who literally want to cause terror in an attempt to wear us thin enough that we'll give in and leave, leaving a hole for their brand of ultra-fundamentalist Islam.

I would argue more that the spread of our capitalistic, marketing, sex/violence consumerism is what they see as the biggest threat to their lives, and why they feel the need for a theocracy.

So, what we have to sell is the benefits of our society (engineering, science, services, like water, food, electricity, infrastructure, etc...) and let up on the push to put Hooters in Baghdad (not really happening).
__________________
MadelynIris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 12:54 PM   #140
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
I haven't seen much evidence that the Russian and Chinese leaders are deranged psychopaths, have you?).
Well China has routinely threatened Taiwan for years and have lots of troop manuvers near Taiwan used to inflame tensions there. I'm sure if I lived there I would be more anxious. Russia has Putin so yes they already have a paranoid Narcissist leader. Just look at his adventure into Georgia. There has to be a better way to get Georgians that want to join Russia without a forced annexation, especially when there is probably a minority that need time to leave if they decide they don't want to be a part of Russia. If France decided that there are many in Quebec that want to join France and chose to forcefully annex it that would seem psychopathic. (Another French joke).

Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
The lessons from Northern Ireland are clear. In 1969, the shooting by state forces of 13 unarmed civilians, together with internment of elements the Catholic population held to be 'terrorist sympathisers' and, in some cases, allegations of torture of terrorist suspects (though the worst allegations, if true, were nothing like as bad, not even remotely, as what Western intelligence have revealed to be involved in the prosecution of the so-called 'Global War on Terror) fed a three decade conflict that led to the deaths of 3,000.
It's a good point but I'm not an expert on Ireland so I would be fearful of equating terrorism in two different cultures as being exactly the same. Also Protestants and Catholics have had bloody affairs going back to the Reformation. It's hard for me to be totally convinced that the torture by itself is the main cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
Of course, we bloody well will, it was Western policies, advocated by those same neo-cons that fed it. And then, sure enough, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Heckofajob, neocons!!!
The problem I have with this is that Muslim terrorism existed before Bush. Do you include Bill Clinton as Neo-Cons, and was his inaction to blast Bin Laden to kingdom come the right move? It's true we need to look at cause and effect but I don't want to go so far as to assume that Muslim terrorists are Newtonian inertia effects without agency and decision making of their own. There certainly can be an argument that by not killing Bin Laden the result was September 11th. Bin Laden also made comments about U.S. weakness in Somalia as an opportunity to be exploited. Muslims have to take some responsiblity for their actions. Aggressive interpretations of Islam definately causes lots of strife for the world. Whatever imperfections there are in the West we have to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and defend our values with less guilt. Opponents to democracy seem to be able to have patriotism over shameless ideas and succeed at making us feel guilty at the same time. Why? We have lots to be thankful for and have lots of good laws and rights worth defending. If we think some of our laws are hypocritical and unfair we don't have to assassinate the leader; we can just use the ballot box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
I really hope I'm wrong, but whether I am right or wrong, as I said it is a security issue to deal with this problem and not a military one.
Here I think there is a more fresh debate. One argument is to keep the terrorists at bay with offensive attacks on them and the other argument is to be like a goalie trying to have a perfect goals against average. I'm not sold on the goalie part yet. At minimum there has to be a "tit for tat" response if reconstruction is too optimistic. Though there are others that say reconstruction is the only way. Remember Afghanis complained about Americans not spending money on infrastructure when the Soviets were kicked out of Afghanistan? I think they made a movie Charlie Wilson's War that made that argument. At some point leaders will be criticized no matter what they do or don't do.

Anyways this is a good discussion. It's better than talking about Mel Gibson's divorce or Lindsay Lohan.
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 02:22 PM   #141
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post

When you uncover your eyes, can you go back and answer the first question I asked? Or just tell me what your ideal plan would have been.
So are all you partiers still hung over? Where's the plan?
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2009, 06:25 PM   #142
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
So are all you partiers still hung over? Where's the plan?


the plan is to continue to watch Fox News.

the ratings mean very little. prime time on cable news networks has more to do with the quality of the personalities in the line up than any sort of indication as to where the country is or is not going. 2 million viewers is paltry compared to the amount of people who watch, say, Project Runway, let alone a Big 3 nightly newscast.

people talk about what a force Rush Limbaugh is, and he is, for talk radio. it's still a limited audience, and it seems to me that cable news is mostly for those who derive a sense of entertainment and pleasure getting outraged -- and it's much easier to do that now that we have a black man liberal in the White House and the country as a whole has taken a clear turn to the left. nearly half of all Americans feel as if their tax rate is reasonable. far, far, far less than that are tuning in to watch Hannity distort reality. the Obama administration and continued Democratic control of Congress is very good business for Roger Ailes, but cable news ratings mean very little in the overall direction of the country, particularly since the Obama administration doesn't (yet) look to CNN or MSNBC to leak information and thusly spin said information in order to win the news cycle in the same way that the Bush administration did with Fox News.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 01:16 PM   #143
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
So are all you partiers still hung over? Where's the plan?
Fantastic question. It's easy to bitch but what is the solution? I've got some ideas (when do I not?)

- 1st. It's up to the public to get their personal finances in order and they need to develop self-discipline in their lives to reduce boredom, and addiction to consumerism. We can blame Keynesian economics all we want for reducing the incentive to save and pushing the incentive to spend but they are not putting a gun to our heads. People should be buying things that enhance their freedom and not reduce it. (Only with some lifestyle sacrifice can this be achieved). This way jobs are created that have something essential about them and people don't have to justify useless jobs.
- 2nd. Vote conservative Republicans in Congress and to get a conservative Republican as a presidential candidate. Everything else is a Fabian compromise. If there isn't a conservative lifestyle that people are living then what leaders will exist that will want to lose elections for a lost cause? Conservatives need to walk the walk if they want to create enough of a base. Eventually candidates will pop out of the woodwork.
- 3rd. Get the country's books in order. Even if the public improves their personal finances they are all taxpayers and take personal responsiblity for the debt that is racked up by the government.
- 4th. Stand up to all dictatorships and false democracies. They piggy back on our trade and threaten us at the same time.
- 5th. Support and network with real democracies (AKA trade). Reliance on trade with dictatorships gives them leverage so we can't complain about their human rights abuses and offers lots of wealth to stock pile weapons that they aim at us and our allies.

Quote:
"The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them"? ~ attributed to Lenin
This is only the case if we let them.

To me if step 1 isn't done first by a large number of people in the U.S. I can't see how anything else afterwards can be achieved with any lasting success. If people handle their finances badly then the government will increase in size because the population will be demanding it.
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 01:34 PM   #144
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,296
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
- 4th. Stand up to all dictatorships and false democracies. They piggy back on our trade and threaten us at the same time.
Good luck with that one.
__________________
anitram is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 01:50 PM   #145
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
- 2nd. Vote conservative Republicans in Congress and to get a conservative Republican as a presidential candidate. Everything else is a Fabian compromise. If there isn't a conservative lifestyle that people are living then what leaders will exist that will want to lose elections for a lost cause? Conservatives need to walk the walk if they want to create enough of a base. Eventually candidates will pop out of the woodwork.


we had a very conservative Republican president and a very conservative Republican congress that actually increased it's numbers in 2002.

and look where we are now.

i know, i know .... you'll get into the whole "but they weren't *real* conservative Republicans," but we know that's garbage in the same way that free market capitalists sound exactly the same as utopian communists who both say, "well, our system would be perfect if it was properly implemented."

bottom line: conservative Republicans in this country have proved themselves to be incompetent. they were booted out of office in 2006 and 2008, and the Republican Party is now the party of white southern christian males. that's not a base upon which to build any sort of future.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 02:23 PM   #146
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
- 1st. It's up to the public to get their personal finances in order and they need to develop self-discipline in their lives to reduce boredom, and addiction to consumerism. We can blame Keynesian economics all we want for reducing the incentive to save and pushing the incentive to spend but they are not putting a gun to our heads. People should be buying things that enhance their freedom and not reduce it. (Only with some lifestyle sacrifice can this be achieved). This way jobs are created that have something essential about them and people don't have to justify useless jobs.
This isn't a plan, this is a suggetion. Government can't do anything to control or regulate this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
- 2nd. Vote conservative Republicans in Congress and to get a conservative Republican as a presidential candidate. Everything else is a Fabian compromise. If there isn't a conservative lifestyle that people are living then what leaders will exist that will want to lose elections for a lost cause? Conservatives need to walk the walk if they want to create enough of a base. Eventually candidates will pop out of the woodwork.
You are just downright laughable at times...

So your plan is to eliminate all other parties. I think there is a word for that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
- 3rd. Get the country's books in order. Even if the public improves their personal finances they are all taxpayers and take personal responsiblity for the debt that is racked up by the government.
Ok, but how? You aren't answering this. The question is what plan would those tea partiers want in place of what is going on now? Your answer is "fix it", this is worse than the Republican budget that had no numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
- 4th. Stand up to all dictatorships and false democracies. They piggy back on our trade and threaten us at the same time.
Give me a real life example of how you stand up and to who that would fix the situation right now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
- 5th. Support and network with real democracies (AKA trade). Reliance on trade with dictatorships gives them leverage so we can't complain about their human rights abuses and offers lots of wealth to stock pile weapons that they aim at us and our allies.
Same as above...

None is this has anything to do with the situation at hand and what the tea parties were apparently about...
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 02:27 PM   #147
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Given the deafening silence to my question and the failed attempt to understand what a plan is, I think it's safe to say that these tea parties were exactly what many of us expected one big Republican bitch fest joke.

I think historically they will go down as an embarassing stain on the Republican party.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 02:31 PM   #148
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
You are just downright laughable at times...
Don't be a jerk.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 02:37 PM   #149
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Don't be a jerk.
But calling everyone else who doesn't think like him a "lost cause" isn't being a jerk?
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 02:53 PM   #150
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:03 PM
I don't see where he was personalizing it; he even complimented your question and joked self-deprecatingly about never being at a loss for ideas. What you said was a personal attack.
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com