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Old 12-02-2008, 10:05 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
It's too bad Bush didn't jump on the McCain/troop level bandwagon two years prior to when he did. Sinking with the Rummy ship out of sheer stupidity (read:blind certainty/loyalty apparently gifted from Zeus)
There was important work done in those two years that helped to lay some of the ground work for the rapid success seen with the surge. Insurgent cells were destroyed during that time, other insurgent cells were successfully negotiated with and some switched sides, the Iraqi military was in the process of being built from the ground up, Iraqi oil facilities and other infrustructure key to the country were being built or rebuilt. Despite the continuing difficulties and the explosion in sectarian violence after the Al Quada Mosque bombings in February 2006, progress was still made that would later help the Surge be so rapidly successful.



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Obama is the anti-Bush.
Informed decisions based on the information at hand.
I'm not saying I agree with all of his policies, I am saying I agree with his rationale for decision making. Surround yourself with as many views as possible, dissenting or not. Anti-Bush.

In other words, informed and curious.
Bush is the one that has actually done this. I have yet to see Obama make any informed decisions on Foreign Policy based on the information at hand. I am hopeful with the pick of his security team though that we might see that in his administration rather than the crap we saw when he was a Senator.

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Would you rather Obama have not jumped on the bandwagon, so you could lambaste him as a Leftist caricature?
I'd like to see the United States succeed in Iraq and other places around the world regardless of who is in the White House. I'd be happy if Obama's positions as President are essentially the opposite of the ignorant ones he held as a Senator and as a candidate for President.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:41 PM   #32
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as has been extensively demonstrated in here, it is the Iraqi government and the Bush administration that has adopted Obama's position,
The SOFA, Status of Forces Agreement was negotiated by the Bush administration and the Iraqi government based on the conditions and situations on the ground in Iraq that were arrived at by the Surge policy that Bush supported and Barack Obama opposed. The withdrawal position in the agreement is based on conditions on the ground NOT the time based withdrawal position proposed by Barack Obama.

It was Barack Obama who proposed withdrawing all US combat Brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008 without any conditions to first be met on the ground before they were withdrawn. In Barack OBama's view, Iraq was a "Civil War" that the United States could not solve and should not be involved in. His position, the one that liberal part of the Democratic Party thought was most important, was to withdraw all US combat forces out of Iraq as soon as possible regardless of any of the consequences. It was an irresponsible policy denounced by the majority of military and foreign policy officials on the job, in office, or retired.


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everyone has jumped on the Obama bandwagon, not the opposite.
If that had been the case, the Surge never would have happened, most if not all US troops would be out of Iraq by now, violence in Iraq would have exploded to unimaginable levels and the new President would have to be looking at the possibility of essentially re-occupying Iraq and starting all over again with the rebuilding process that would have been completely destroyed when it was decided to all of sudden to abandon the mission and leave the country as quickly as possible.

Thanks to Bush and the Republicans opposition to the Obama bandwagon of 2007-2008, that never happened. Now that major and hopefully lasting success has come to Iraq, it appears that Obama will likely get on board the Bush Bandwagon when he becomes President on January 20, 2009. Hopefully, Obama wants to be a successful President and won't mind abandoning the liberal wing of the Democratic party on many issues.




Here are some memorable moments from 2007-2008 about Obama and the Surge:

YouTube - Obama's Iraq Problem: Change That Works For Him


YouTube - Obama Says The Surge Will Fail, We Will Fail.
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:17 AM   #33
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There was important work done in those two years that helped to lay some of the ground work for the rapid success seen with the surge. Insurgent cells were destroyed during that time, other insurgent cells were successfully negotiated with and some switched sides, the Iraqi military was in the process of being built from the ground up, Iraqi oil facilities and other infrustructure key to the country were being built or rebuilt. Despite the continuing difficulties and the explosion in sectarian violence after the Al Quada Mosque bombings in February 2006, progress was still made that would later help the Surge be so rapidly successful.
Sure there was good work done, it's not as if anyone would seriously claim it was all for naught.

I just take issue with how you speak of Bush's plan being "so successful". which requires that you ignore so much of what actually occurred prior to Fall of 2006. Which was a solid 3.5 years and how many unnecessary casualties?

I think a more respectful summation might be that he's merely proven a lot of the "withdraw now" crowd wrong. Which was always a stupid position, IMO.

Bush's floundering on Iraq in 03, 04, 05 wasn't just a bump in the road.
You're talking about real lives and ramifications.

Forgive me if I don't jump on the 'Success Bus' with you just to prove a political point.
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Old 12-03-2008, 06:48 AM   #34
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What's even better is the democrats shifting on their other policies too:

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Senator Dianne Feinstein , the California Democrat who will take over as chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee in January, led the fight this year to force the C.I.A. to follow military interrogation rules. Her bill was passed by Congress but vetoed by President Bush.

But in an interview on Tuesday, Mrs. Feinstein indicated that extreme cases might call for flexibility. “I think that you have to use the noncoercive standard to the greatest extent possible,” she said, raising the possibility that an imminent terrorist threat might require special measures.
Gotta love it.
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:11 AM   #35
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What's even better is the democrats shifting on their other policies too:



Gotta love it.
Well if it's legal, and not a "flexibility", what's to stop it from becoming the norm?
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:44 AM   #36
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If you argue the case of the ticking time-bomb terrorist when Bush is president you're a Nazi, if you do it with Obama you're responsible
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:51 AM   #37
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Continue the spin...
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:00 AM   #38
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Don't need to, there's enough to go around.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:11 AM   #39
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:14 AM   #40
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I'm glad someone got my spinning around joke
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:22 AM   #41
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That's actually the first time I've used the spinning head smilie, but now I have 'You Spin Me Round' stuck in my head...
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:33 AM   #42
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You've done it to me, only I have to try and get to sleep with that infernal song in my head!
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:17 AM   #43
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Repeating a faulty claim over and over doesn't demonstrate anything.

except that it isn't faulty.

though i agree with the statement.

the major difference is the "set timeline" for "withdrawal." this was never the Bush position until he came around to adopt it shortly after Obama visited Iraq in June and Maliki endorsed his position. we'll get spin saying that this was always the Bush position, but it wasn't. the Bush position was to abdicate all control and command and responsibility to the generals and let them run the whole damn thing and with no timeline for a withdrawal. the distinction is that Obama redefined the terms to put an 18 month withdrawal as a goal, but one that obviously could shift based on conditions. the creation of a clear endpoint is much, much different from the Bush/McCain position of "stay the course" no matter the consequences.


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I'm just encouraged that President Obama will be much more moderate than his Senate record and campaign rhetoric would indicate.

what's interesting is how moderate Bush has actually been in his Iraq policy since firing Rumsfeld and naming Gates. the Republicans swung to the left and adopted a much more moderate, centrist Iraq policy once Rumsfeld was ousted.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:20 AM   #44
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What's even better is the democrats shifting on their other policies too:



Gotta love it.



i look forward to more time, energy, and manpower wasted on false threats extracted from tortured coerced prisoners.
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:35 PM   #45
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A Return to Liberal Warmongering? Peace Advocates Must Continue the Battle - by Doug Bandow

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Barack Obama is nothing if not an accomplished politician. Despite a background as a community activist, conventional liberal stance in the Illinois state senate, extraordinarily liberal voting record in the US Senate, and celebrated anti-Iraq war position, as president-elect he has raced to the center. In doing so he has reassured Americans worried that he wanted to become redistributionist-in-chief. But he also has generated widespread fear that his foreign policy will turn into a slightly housebroken version of Bush-McCain neoconservatism.

We can't say we weren't warned. The foreign policy pronouncements of candidate Obama were notable for their barely muted hawkishness. Thus, the fight against promiscuous military intervention by Washington must continue, only now against the incoming Democratic administration.

President-elect Barack Obama has declared that with his appointments he hopes to "combine experience and fresh thinking." On the national security side, at least, the experience is obvious. But the fresh thinking is entirely absent.

The most disconcerting sign of the future, of course, is the expected appointment of the Amazon warrior, Hillary Clinton, as secretary of state. She voted for the Iraq war and undoubtedly would have backed it even more enthusiastically if it had been proposed by her husband.
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The president-elect's rush to embrace the liberal interventionist establishment in choosing his foreign policy staff suggests that the next four years will be a lot like the last eight in substance if not tone, and a lot like the previous eight years in both substance and tone. This means that anyone who believes in a foreign policy of peace and nonintervention must continue the battle. The fight against the Bush-McCain neocons is over. The fight against the Obama-Clinton liberal interventionists is about to begin.
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