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Old 12-01-2008, 04:21 AM   #16
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the Iraqi government has already enacted the Obama plan and set the groundwork for the phased withdrawal. further, the point was clearly made that Obama was against "dumb wars," not that he was a dove (the natural opposite for a hawk).
The occupation and prolonged involvement in Afghanistan is starting to look like a dumb war.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:01 AM   #17
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I think it's commendable that Obama is taking a non-partisan stand when choosing his candidates. I'm glad that he has the best interests of the country at heart and that he's picking the best people for the job regardless of past rivalrys.

That's the sign of a good leader.

Well done.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:36 AM   #18
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The occupation and prolonged involvement in Afghanistan is starting to look like a dumb war.


thank goodness we'll have a president and a security team who are nimble and can react and adapt to realities on the ground rather than continuing to adhere to a losing strategy simply to make a point.

to good judgment, clear thinking, and pragmatism.

i'm thinking, actually, of Gates when i wrote the above sentence.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:38 AM   #19
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How is the Obama plan different from the "they stand up, we stand down" policy that Bush has been pursuing? Is it not the final stage of that policy?


the difference is the Iraqis are dictating those terms, and they're not about to allow a massive network of American bases on their soil nor will they allow the US to launch attacks on other countries from their soil.

am surprised you'd take a Bush generality at such face value.

you sound like someone else.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:57 AM   #20
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the difference is the Iraqis are dictating those terms, and they're not about to allow a massive network of American bases on their soil nor will they allow the US to launch attacks on other countries from their soil.

am surprised you'd take a Bush generality at such face value.

you sound like someone else.
LMAO!!!!
who....MOI?

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Old 12-01-2008, 11:07 AM   #21
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The occupation and prolonged involvement in Afghanistan is starting to look like a dumb war.
It was not a dumb war, the dumb part is that it couldn't be properly executed due to a little thing called Iraq
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:53 PM   #22
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I think it's commendable that Obama is taking a non-partisan stand when choosing his candidates. I'm glad that he has the best interests of the country at heart and that he's picking the best people for the job regardless of past rivalrys.

That's the sign of a good leader.

Well done.
Agreed. Beginning to wonder if Afganistan/Iraq will bring down the US the way it brought down Russia 20 years ago.

We'll see whose interests are really being served based on his handling of Iran.
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:55 PM   #23
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:55 PM   #24
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slight derail

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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
thank goodness .


Titus Pullo is coming to a big screen near you.



Sunday Conversation: Ray Stevenson of 'Punisher: War Zone' - Los Angeles Times



/ end of derail
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:15 PM   #25
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Titus Pullo is coming to a big screen near you.



Sunday Conversation: Ray Stevenson of 'Punisher: War Zone' - Los Angeles Times



/ end of derail


how did you know/remember i used to lust after him in Rome?

good to see him getting work again.
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:46 AM   #26
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thank goodness we'll have a president and a security team who are nimble and can react and adapt to realities on the ground rather than continuing to adhere to a losing strategy simply to make a point.

to good judgment, clear thinking, and pragmatism.

i'm thinking, actually, of Gates when i wrote the above sentence.
Interesting that we have a President-elect who picked a national security team that unanimously supported a war he refered to as being "dumb".

If that was not enough, the whole team has been critical of the time based 16 month withdrawal that Obama has so often campaigned for in the past.

The only losing strategy was the one Obama and his colleagues on Capital Hill tried to force down the Presidents throat but ultimately failed in early 2007. The bill they tried to have passed would have withdrawn all US combat brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008 in the middle of increased sectarian violence and with an Iraqi military with less than half the capabilities it has today.


Bush administration policy has been so successful in Iraq, that it looks like Obama has decided he'll jump on the bandwagon. To bad he won't be able to get much if any of the credit though. The fact is, the only truely original idea's he has proposed on Iraq, were ones that were bound to fail and thankfully were defeated by the President and the Republicans.

If Obama is smart(he does appear to be learning), and does not want to mess with the tremendous progress that has been made in Iraq, its unlikely he will deviate much if at all from Bush administration policy in this area. Selecting a national security team similar to Bush's is a start. But we'll have to wait another 50 days to start to see what his policies will look like.
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:59 AM   #27
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the difference is the Iraqis are dictating those terms,
Its a negotiated settlement which by the way can be amended as needed. The US military has not signed on to anything they feel is unworkable given the current conditions on the ground in Iraq.

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and they're not about to allow a massive network of American bases on their soil
They already have, and just agreed to keep much of it for up to another three years. If need be, the agreement can be amended and the withdrawal time pushed back even further.

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nor will they allow the US to launch attacks on other countries from their soil.
Unless they feel it is necessary. Also, the US does not need Iraqi soil to be able to launch attacks on neighboring countries.


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am surprised you'd take a Bush generality at such face value.
If you dug a little deaper, you'd see it has been Bush administration strategy from day 1. There has never been a plan by anyone to permanently station 150,000 troops in Iraq, no matter what the liberal conspiracy theorist like to think.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:09 PM   #28
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Bush administration policy has been so successful in Iraq, that it looks like Obama has decided he'll jump on the bandwagon.
It's too bad Bush didn't jump on the McCain/troop level bandwagon two years prior to when he did. Sinking with the Rummy ship out of sheer stupidity (read:blind certainty/loyalty apparently gifted from Zeus)

Obama is the anti-Bush.
Informed decisions based on the information at hand.
I'm not saying I agree with all of his policies, I am saying I agree with his rationale for decision making. Surround yourself with as many views as possible, dissenting or not. Anti-Bush.

In other words, informed and curious.

Would you rather Obama have not jumped on the bandwagon, so you could lambaste him as a Leftist caricature?
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:38 PM   #29
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Would you rather Obama have not jumped on the bandwagon, so you could lambaste him as a Leftist caricature?


as has been extensively demonstrated in here, it is the Iraqi government and the Bush administration that has adopted Obama's position, and that position was a timetable for withdrawal based upon what is possible at the time.

everyone has jumped on the Obama bandwagon, not the opposite.
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Old 12-02-2008, 06:20 PM   #30
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as has been extensively demonstrated in here, it is the Iraqi government and the Bush administration that has adopted Obama's position.
Repeating a faulty claim over and over doesn't demonstrate anything.


I'm just encouraged that President Obama will be much more moderate than his Senate record and campaign rhetoric would indicate.
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