Another US Patriot passes away..

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Originally Posted by maycocksean
After all these are the same guys that were okay with me being 3/5 of a person so they're not the Final Word. These men were products of their time.



thank you for reminding us of this. it's incredibly important.

so often, in our excitement to claim history for our own selfish purposes and to justify our contemporary political beliefs, we forget how flawed our forefathers were due to their time. any sort of essentialism -- be it in government, or the understanding of marriage -- is always flawed. such "timeless truths" about whatever are contemporary concoctions where the past is never understood on it's own terms. it's merely made to serve the present moment.

Counting black slaves as a whole person would actually have been worse !! With the net effect of increasing Southern representation in the House and Electoral College even further than the Three-Fifths Compromise had done.

Paradoxically, since they themselves couldn't vote, slavery may have ended earlier--and possibly the Civil War avoided--if slaves hadn't counted as people at all.
 
I'm stealing this from BVS.

Counting black slaves as a whole person would actually have been worse !! With the net effect of increasing Southern representation in the House and Electoral College even further than the Three-Fifths Compromise had done.

Paradoxically, since they themselves couldn't vote, slavery may have ended earlier--and possibly the Civil War avoided--if slaves hadn't counted as people at all.

:huh:

So if we want to help them, we should hurt them first?
 
The Three-Fifths Compromise was not a judgement, it was a political middle-ground between Northern and Southern states and was seen as a SETBACK for states OPPOSED to slavery who only wanted to count freemen towards representation in Congress.

Is American History still taught in American schools?
 
I don't think there's much point to this 3/5 tangent; sean was pretty clearly just invoking it as symptomatic of the "FF's" willingness to accept slavery as the price of establishing a new federal government, not suggesting that some perception of black people as literally being "3/5 of a person" was somehow the "cause of" or "justification for" slavery.
 
um, i'll just wait for Sean.

Yolland got there first.

The Three-Fifths Compromise was not a judgement, it was a political middle-ground between Northern and Southern states and was seen as a SETBACK for states OPPOSED to slavery who only wanted to count freemen towards representation in Congress.

Is American History still taught in American schools?

Yes, and I teach it. You've done a great job of making my point. These men were products of their time. The whole 3/5 thing was a political compromise which is exactly what made it so sad. There was nothing moral or ethical about it. See below:

I don't think there's much point to this 3/5 tangent; sean was pretty clearly just invoking it as symptomatic of the "FF's" willingness to accept slavery as the price of establishing a new federal government, not suggesting that some perception of black people as literally being "3/5 of a person" was somehow the "cause of" or "justification for" slavery.

:yes:
 
The Founding Fathers
Their Faith
Were they deists? In an attempt to hide the Christian founding of America, many teachers and college professors claim that the founders of the United States were not Christians but rather deists who believed in an impersonal Deity but rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ and the inspiration of the Bible. This simply isn't true. Although both Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were what may be referred to as "deists," the vast majority of the remaining founders were unapologetic, born-again Christians. Let's let them speak for themselves.

JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, the Sixth President of the United States, said, "My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ..."

JOHN JAY, First Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, said, "Unto Him who is the Author and Giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son... Blessed be His holy name!" (John Jay's last will and testament)

GEORGE MASON, the Father of the Bill of Rights: "My soul I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator. Whose tender mercies are all over His works, humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins."

ROGER SHERMAN, a signer both of the Declaration and Constitution: "I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost... that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are revelation from God... that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer [and] that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead and a final judgment of all mankind when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment. "

SAMUEL ADAMS, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, said, "Principally and first of all, I recommend my soul to that Almighty Being who gave it and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." (Samuel Adam's last will and testament.)

JOSIAH BARTLETT, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, also said "Firstly, I commit my Soul into the hands of God, its great and benevolent author. "

DAVID BREARLEY, Signer of the Constitution, stated, "First and principally, I commit my Soul unto Almighty God."

CHARLES CARROLL, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, said, "On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works which I have done in obedience to His precepts."

GABRIEL DUVALL, selected as a Delegate to the Constitutional Convention and a U.S. Supreme Court Justice, boldly declared, "I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of his mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ."

JOHN HART, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, said, "[T]hanks be given unto Almighty God therefore, and knowing that it is appointed for all men once to die and after that the judgment [Hebrews 9:27]... principally, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of Almighty God who gave it and my body to the earth to be buried in a decent and Christian like manner... to receive the same again at the general resurrection by the mighty power of God."

JOHN DICKINSON, a General during the American Revolution and a signer of the Constitution, declared: "Rendering thanks to my Creator... for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity." (John Dickinson's last will and testament.)

ROGER SHERMAN, Signer of both the Declaration and the Constitution, "I believe that there is only one living and true God, existing in three person, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him."

ROBERT TREAT PAINE, Signer of the Declaration declared: "I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being - the Author of my existence - in full belief of... His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through Whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state." (From the Last Will and Testament of Robert Treat Paine, attested May 11, 1814)

GUNNING BEDFORD, Signer of the Constitution declared: "To the triune God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost - be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore - Amen."

RICHARD STOCKTON, Signer of the Declaration stated: "I subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion,... [and I exhort] that the course of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state." (From the Last Will & Testament of Richard Stockton, attested May 20, 1780)

DR. BENJAMIN RUSH, Signer of the Declaration said, "My only hope of salvation is in the infinite transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins [Acts 22:16]. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly! [Revelation 22:20]"

GEORGE WASHINGTON prayed, "Almighty God,... I beseech thee, my sins, remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into thy temple, and compass thine altar, my prayer may come before thee as incense; and as thou wouldst hear me calling upon thee in my prayers, so give me grace to hear thee calling upon me in thy Word...for his sake, who lay down in the Grave and rose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."

The following inscription is found on a granite memorial at the grave of George Washington in Mount Vernon. It was written by Mrs. John Washington, the wife of George's nephew.

A sincere Christian Doing in all things the will of his Master And resting his hope of eternal happiness Alone on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Even THOMAS JEFFERSON, called a deist by many, called himself a Christian. He stated that his views were, "the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus Himself. I am a Christian in the only true sense in which He wished anyone to be, sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others..."

Notice several important things about Mr. Jefferson's statement. First, that it stands in contrast to what some today claim of him. Second, during those days in which this country was founded, Jefferson saw nothing negative attached to being considered a Christian, unlike some of today's politicians and teachers. Third, he not only saw no negative stigma to Christianity, but he himself wanted to be included with those who wore that label. This is not the Thomas Jefferson of the average college political science class.

Their esteem for the Bible and Christian principles
Today many politicians, educators and entertainers have little regard for the Bible or Christianity. They mock it, disdain it or try to raise the writing of heathen religions to equal status in hopes of being considered "politically correct." But the Founding Fathers would not be found among them if they were alive today. They were open and shameless concerning their reverence for God, Jesus Christ and the Bible and the conviction that to turn to the Bible and Christianity would be beneficial to anyone.

Our first president, GEORGE WASHINGTON said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports."

JOHN ADAMS, our second president said, "The Bible is the best book in the world." He also believed, "Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their own law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited...what a utopia; what a paradise this region would be!"

Our third president, THOMAS JEFFERSON said, "The Bible is the source of liberty." He further stated, "The Bible makes the best people in the world."

JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, our sixth president said, "So great is my veneration of the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read it, the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens to their country and respectable members of society. I have for many years made it a practice to read through the Bible once a year."

If a president, politician or anyone else made any of these statements today the liberal bullies in the News Media would viciously attack them. But it is they who are wrong, not our Founding Fathers and not those who would espouse Christianity today. The intolerant tyrants in the News Media are to be ignored and chastened for their shameless bigoted hatred for the faith of the founders of this great nation.

But these views were not limited to just our early presidents. ROBERT TREAT PAINE said, "I believe the Bible to be the written word of God and to contain in it the whole rule of faith and manners."

Chief Justice, JOHN JAY urged, "The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the Word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and the next. Continue, therefore, to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts."

ABRAHAM BALDWIN, a Signer of the Constitution advised, "It should therefore be among the first objects of those who wish well to the national prosperity to encourage and support the principles of religion and morality."

OLIVER ELLSWORTH, a member of the Constitutional Convention and the third Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, declared, "The primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society...To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these... religious institutions are eminently useful and important."

So we see that the views of our Founders were that the Bible and its teachings were superior to any and every belief system on earth. Having no television through which to be intimidated and cowered, they did not feel at all bigoted or intolerant about their views. The fact is, if they were alive today the News Media would portray them as "intolerant," higher education would declare them "religious extremists" and tyrannic liberal judges would accuse them of violating the very Constitution that they wrote!

Their Evangelistic fervor
The argument may be put forth by those who are desperate to obliterate the Christian history of the United States that, although these men were indeed Christians, they had "too much character" to propagate their faith to others. That simply isn't true.

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN desired to start a colony in Ohio with the Rev. George Whitefield to "facilitate the introduction of pure religion among the heathen" in order to show the Indians "a better sample of Christians than they commonly see in our Indian traders."

GEORGE WASHINGTON told a gathering of Indians, "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are."

JOHN JAY the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "I recommend a general and public return of praise and thanksgiving to Him from whose goodness these blessings descend. The most effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the source from which they flow."

If a public official made such a statement, today the slave masters in the News Media would go through the roof criticizing him for his freedom of speech.

JOHN WITHERSPOON, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, said, "I shall now entreat...you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for 'there is no salvation in any other' [Acts 4: 12]...(I)f you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish."

JACOB BROOM, Signer of the Constitution, "Don't forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head and I hope an indelible impression is made."

JOHN JAY, the original Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, stated" I have long been of the opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds, and I think they who undertake that task will derive advantages. . . ."


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The Three-Fifths Compromise was not a judgement, it was a political middle-ground between Northern and Southern states and was seen as a SETBACK for states OPPOSED to slavery who only wanted to count freemen towards representation in Congress.

Is American History still taught in American schools?



good gosh your smug.

anyway, sounds like civil unions to me.
 
They mock it, disdain it or try to raise the writing of heathen religions to equal status in hopes of being considered "politically correct."
By what right is this author claiming that other religions are heathen? I call a religion untrue and misguided, but I have the decency to do it equally.
 
By what right is this author claiming that other religions are heathen? I call a religion untrue and misguided, but I have the decency to do it equally.

It's a "my dick is bigger is bigger than yours" for the religious.

"My fairy story is better than your fairy story.......mine parted the red sea, well, mine has secret golden plates no one has ever seen, well, mine gives you 47 virgins when you die......."

I mean, really......if mohammed, moses or smith made these claims today they'd be locked up ! (unless they provided a youtube clip of course)
 
090212coversm.jpg





I thought this article would be a timely post in light of Lincoln's birthday:

Modern revisionist historians like to state their case that Lincoln was not a Christian. They say that his belief in God was undefined and even unimportant in the great work he accomplished.

Those New Age attempts to redefine Lincoln could not be farther from the truth. Let us examine Lincoln 's relationship with God primarily in his own words.

It is true that for much of Lincoln 's life, he did not regularly attend a church. Almost all of his youth he lived with his family on the edge of the frontier, often too far from a church to be able to go to Sunday services.

However, after he was elected President, he regularly attended the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, just a few, short blocks from the White House. After Lincoln 's son, William died on February 20, 1862, the grief and loss that Abraham experienced brought him closer to God and his attendance at church increased dramatically.

President Lincoln, like Joseph Smith, lived in the period called the Second Great Awakening. One of the few books in his home was the Bible. Abraham, like many of his day, learned to read from the Bible, and he left many records that clearly let us see how he felt about the Bible.

He delivered a speech on April 6, 1858, to the Young Men's Association of Bloomington, Illinois and said this about the Bible: “The written work, the Bible, is the great invention of the world. It is the great invention because it liberates mankind from the bondage of the present.”

The freedmen of Baltimore , Maryland presented President Lincoln with a gift of a Bible on September 7, 1864. In thanking them he said, “In regard to this great book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good, Savior gave to this world was communicated through this book. But for it, we could not know right from wrong. All things desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.”




Joshua Speed of Kentucky , was an old friend of Lincoln . He told about Lincoln 's belief in the Bible in this story. “The summer before he was killed, I was invited out to the Soldier's Home. As I entered the room, he was sitting near a window intently reading his Bible. Approaching him, I said, ‘I am so glad to see you so profitably engaged.'

“‘Yes' said he, ‘I am profitably engaged.'

“‘Well,' said I, ‘If you have recovered from your skepticism, I am sorry to say that I have not.'

“Looking me earnestly in the face, and placing his hand on my shoulder, he said, ‘You are wrong, Speed; take all of this book upon reason that you can, and the balance on faith, and you will live and die a happier man.'”

President-elect Lincoln began his journey to Washington , D.C. on February 11, 1861. Just before he boarded the train at the Springfield railroad station, he addressed the crowd gathered to see him off with these words: “I now leave, not knowing when or whether ever I may return, with a task before me greater than that which rested upon Washington . Without the assistance of the Divine Being who ever attended him, I cannot succeed; with that assistance I can not fail.”

At one of the first White House receptions held after the Civil War started, a visitor shook the President's hand and told him solemnly that the future of the country depended on God and Abraham Lincoln.

“You are half right” responded the President.

Lincoln declared more days of prayer, fasting and thanksgiving, nine in all, than any President before or since. All of those declarations invoke the name of God.

President Lincoln said, “I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go: my own wisdom and that of all around me seemed insufficient for the day.”

President Gordon B. Hinckley wrote my favorite description of Abraham Lincoln. “I urge you to see the big picture and cease worrying about the little blemishes. Abraham Lincoln was a gangling figure of a man, with a long and craggy face. There were many who looked only at the imperfections of his countenance. There were others who joked over the way he walked, and kept their eyes so low that they never saw the true greatness of the man. That enlarged view came only to those who saw the whole character – body, mind, and spirit – as he stood at the head of a divided nation in its darkest hour, lacing it together ‘with malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gave him to see the right.'”

Lincoln_0005.jpg






Lincoln wrote a plea to the people of his time about God. Even though he wrote these words almost 150 years ago, in many ways they were written for us today to help us face the very real challenges that now stand before us. “We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven; we have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have grown in numbers, wealth and power ... But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us.”

Great people are not born that way. They are just ordinary children of God that rise to the occasion. Lincoln was just such a man. In all his greatness, he was a child of God, nothing more and nothing less. We continue to receive the blessings of his faith today.
 
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