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Old 12-04-2008, 06:12 PM   #121
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Was He with Joshua when he brought down the walls of Jericho?
According to your beliefs, yes, and even though the slaughter of the Canaanites in all likelihood didn't happen, if we take the story as true, it shows a harmful deity, one which enables genocide.

One is better off without moral justification from such an entity, abstract and mutually agreed principles of individualism and liberty develop better ethics than through bibliotheism.
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Old 12-04-2008, 06:17 PM   #122
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Was He with Joshua when he brought down the walls of Jericho?
Well, apparently he just sat in his corner and waited for the Christian Europeans to set foot on this holy, promised land. And now the US has a monopoly on God.
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Old 12-04-2008, 06:21 PM   #123
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Well, apparently he just sat in his corner and waited for the Christian Europeans to set foot on this holy, promised land. And now the US has a monopoly on God.
Well, let's face it, the rational clear thinking countries don't really want him. The message appears to be "fine, YOU take him"
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Old 12-04-2008, 06:28 PM   #124
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Fine with me.
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Old 12-04-2008, 06:29 PM   #125
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Was He with Joshua when he brought down the walls of Jericho?


Do you believe he was.



Is this story literally true. verbatim?


Or is it more like

Jack and the Beanstalk? (crosses fingers)
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:13 PM   #126
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Wrong, the national mints couldn't make any changes to U.S. coins without congressional approval. In God We Trust was added to coins only after congressional acts in 1864, 1865, 1873 and has been on all coins since 1938 !!!

It was added to U.S. notes in 1957. In God We Trust became our national motto in 1956 when the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress.
You're certainly more proficient at using the google than I, probably because the topic is far more important to you, as is evading the point, which is that the phrase was not originally intended to be on the money, regardless of the exact date it was added.
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:48 PM   #127
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First off, good argument.

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God has chosen His nation already so there's little use in trying to steal that mantle.
But under the new covenant aren't all believers "Abraham's seed"?

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But interestingly, John Winthrop and the early Puritans did see America as the New Israel. And, AND, no less than Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin proposed Promised Land imagery for our first U.S. Seal. Call it Providence, Manifest Destiny or American Exceptionalism, but our country was formed with an eye towards the heavens.
Perhaps, but the aspects of our country's formation that emphasized the "Manifest Destiny" idea--was that a good thing? I think not.

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The Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights and those quotes I listed earlier, while not derived from scripture, really do presuppose a decent and moral citizenry, which at that time and continuing until the present has largely in this country been supplied by Judeo-Christian teachings. That's the self-governing part. And of course the Founders appealed to an authority above the state as the source of unalienable rights.
I think A_W addressed this well.

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As for the "tip of the hat." Two things. Having a civil religion with occasional Christian language or references is not in any way the same as establishing a national Christian religion. Would we really be better off as a nation if the great speeches of Lincoln, Washington, Reagan, FDR and MLK were stripped of their biblical touchstones? Should Barack Obama cut out that "I am my brother's keeper" rhetoric? Is nothing gained when a president ends a speech with "God Bless America" or begins his term with "So help me, God"?
I don't have a problem with religious language or references being used by our leaders. I do have a problem with it being codified.

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Two. I have no idea how often God intervenes into the affairs of man or nations. But don't you want leaders that ask for guidance from this great source of wisdom we believe in? Shouldn't our country have a day of Thanksgiving and acknowledge our many blessings? No one believes public faith should replace private faith but shouldn't we encourage policies and language that fosters the second?
I know the Bible instructs us to pray for our leaders (and in the NT we're talking about pagan Roman emporers), but I don't see anything in Scripture that suggests that they must reflect our beliefs or encourage policies that foster our private faith. Unless you're talking about a theocracy (which OT Israel was), the Bible doesn't seem to worry too much about the government reflecting our faith.

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Freedom and religion flourish in this country because we draw from both secular and religious traditions but never rely wholly on either.
What other country can you say that about?
Again, see A_Wanderers post.

My main challenge to you remains the same. Is this really a spiritual issue for you, one that can be backed by Scripture, or is it more of a cultural issue, one that longs for a time when Christian faith was just assumed and the atheists kept their doubts to themselves?
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:35 PM   #128
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God has chosen His nation already so there's little use in trying to steal that mantle. But interestingly, John Winthrop and the early Puritans did see America as the New Israel. And, AND, no less than Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin proposed Promised Land imagery for our first U.S. Seal. Call it Providence, Manifest Destiny or American Exceptionalism, but our country was formed with an eye towards the heavens.

The Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights and those quotes I listed earlier, while not derived from scripture, really do presuppose a decent and moral citizenry, which at that time and continuing until the present has largely in this country been supplied by Judeo-Christian teachings. That's the self-governing part. And of course the Founders appealed to an authority above the state as the source of unalienable rights.

As for the "tip of the hat." Two things. Having a civil religion with occasional Christian language or references is not in any way the same as establishing a national Christian religion. Would we really be better off as a nation if the great speeches of Lincoln, Washington, Reagan, FDR and MLK were stripped of their biblical touchstones? Should Barack Obama cut out that "I am my brother's keeper" rhetoric? Is nothing gained when a president ends a speech with "God Bless America" or begins his term with "So help me, God"?

Two. I have no idea how often God intervenes into the affairs of man or nations. But don't you want leaders that ask for guidance from this great source of wisdom we believe in? Shouldn't our country have a day of Thanksgiving and acknowledge our many blessings? No one believes public faith should replace private faith but shouldn't we encourage policies and language that fosters the second?

Freedom and religion flourish in this country because we draw from both secular and religious traditions but never rely wholly on either.
What other country can you say that about?


could you cite your sources please?
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:21 PM   #129
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Two. I have no idea how often God intervenes into the affairs of man or nations. But don't you want leaders that ask for guidance from this great source of wisdom we believe in?
Absolutely not !

Their guidance should be from a source a little more qualified than the supernatural.

May as well just make decisions by rolling a dice.



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Shouldn't our country have a day of Thanksgiving
We do, it's called "Thanksgiving", 4th Thursday of November.

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No one believes public faith should replace private faith but shouldn't we encourage policies and language that fosters the second?
No. Why ? Would you support policies and language that foster atheism ?



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Freedom and religion flourish in this country because we draw from both secular and religious traditions but never rely wholly on either.
What other country can you say that about?
Many countries have some combination of both.

Debatable whether it's a good thing.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:09 AM   #130
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You're certainly more proficient at using the google than I, probably because the topic is far more important to you, as is evading the point, which is that the phrase was not originally intended to be on the money, regardless of the exact date it was added.
I seriously doubt old Abe's mom and pop conceived him with the intent of providing a profile for a penny either.

The fact is, we put symbols and mottos of who we are and what is important to us as a nation on our money.

E Pluribus Unum
Eagles
Liberty
In God We Trust
Past presidents
And on the back on the Indiana quarter...
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:29 AM   #131
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INDY#500

f
t
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:30 AM   #132
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We do, it's called "Thanksgiving", 4th Thursday of November.
Ever read Lincoln's Proclamation declaring a national holiday?
Quote:
Washington, DC—October 3, 1863

The year that is drawing toward its close has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added which are of so extraordinary a nature that they can not fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever-watchful providence of Almighty God.

In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign states to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere, except in the theater of military conflict, while that theater has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union.

Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defense have not arrested the plow, the shuttle, or the ship; the ax has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well as the iron and coal as of our precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege, and the battlefield, and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.

No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.

It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one voice, by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow-citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently[/b] implore the imposition of the Almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it, as soon as may be consistent with the divine purpose,[/b] to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity, and union.

In testimony whereof I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

President Lincoln
And people wonder why we started putting In God We Trust on coins the next year. Because we did... and still do.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:35 AM   #133
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Why did George Washington give his inaugural address inside of a church?

Because we're a secular society.

Why is that church still standing today?

Because the Twin Towers fell down all around it on Sept 11,2001 and God is an Atheist.

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Old 12-06-2008, 03:42 AM   #134
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Perhaps the CIA thru time travel backed by monies channeled by the Illuminati used mind control techinques and forced George to say these nonsensical things:

Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States.

yeah
yeah

that's the ticket.

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Old 12-06-2008, 03:55 AM   #135
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Why did George Washington give his inaugural address inside a church?
Diamond, i think the actual address was given in the Senate chamber (then in NY) before public ceremonies then switched to St Paul's.
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Why is that church still standing today?

Because the Twin Towers fell down all around it on Sept 11,2001 and God is an Atheist.
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Or because GWB and Cheney ran out of explosives before they could wire the old chapel.
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