Another US Patriot passes away.. - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-03-2008, 09:31 PM   #91
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Se7en View Post
danke schöne mein freund. the latter is the more common translation though, so yeah... i'm not 100% certain of his original phrasing.
Gern geschehen.

I've just checked it. Apparently Opium fürs Volk is a quote from Lenin, while Opium des Volkes is the original quote of Marx. My bad.
I've never read his works in full, and doubt I ever will. Yes, I'm a bad socialist German.
Opium fürs Volk is much more common used in Germany, hence why I've not heard of the other one I guess.

Well, anyways, I guess according to the definition of atheist freedom and the compelling bulk of evidence I'm just a miserable anarchist; without morals, of course.
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 10:02 PM   #92
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
I just don't like to see history being rewritten or misstated. Like

Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers: # of FoundingFathers % of Founding Fathers

Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7% (Franklin & Jefferson Deist)
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
(includes signers and members of Constitutional Convention)

Only two Deist

Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers.
I guess I just wonder why it's so important to you to have the shout-outs to God. That's all they are--lip service to the Lord. "Yeah, yeah, God we trust you and all that." In practice we put way much more faith in the money with His name on it.

Certainly the Bible makes it clear that He didn't put much value in this kind of deference.

The time of the founding fathers was also a time of slavery and a time when we were stealing the Indians' land. Do we really want God all wrapped up in that business?

What evidence do you see from the teachings of Jesus that indicate this kind of aggressive appropriation of a nation as "ours" is what He wants?
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 10:03 PM   #93
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
I just don't like to see history being rewritten or misstated. Like

Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers: # of FoundingFathers % of Founding Fathers

Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7% (Franklin & Jefferson Deist)
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
(includes signers and members of Constitutional Convention)

Only two Deist

Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers.
Jefferson is important in this, because of his influence on the first amendment, his views ought to be a significant consideration.

Its also valuable to note how many of the framers were secularists, you can't simply list the religious affiliations of such a wide variety of men in the 18th Century and expect it to mean anything of note. Just because people are religious does not mean they should expect religion in government.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 10:26 PM   #94
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
Its also valuable to note how many of the framers were secularists, you can't simply list the religious affiliations of such a wide variety of men in the 18th Century and expect it to mean anything of note.
Yes, but you see they all gave God a perfunctory "tip of the hat" and that is VITAL. . .


Why, I don't know. We'll see what INDY has to say. . .
__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 10:51 PM   #95
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism.
--Karl Marx

Neither of which I believe Bono would endorse.
you're right

Bono is one hell of a capitalistic little shite.
__________________
deep is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 10:56 PM   #96
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer
Its also valuable to note how many of the framers were secularists,
They were not.

They came to America to flee their govt's version of "church".

To claim they were secularists is an attempt to rewrite US History.

We know the historical reasons why they came here and reasons for the foundation of our country.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 11:06 PM   #97
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
They were not.

They came to America to flee their govt's version of "church".

To claim they were secularists is an attempt to rewrite US History.

We know the historical reasons why they came here and reasons for the foundation of our country.

<>
The framers didn't come to America at all.

As for those that did come some 150 or so years earlier, they came for a variety of reasons. Some for opportunity and to make their fortunes. And yes, some for religious freedom. And it seems to me that the "reasons for the foundation" of our country were by and large secular.

And before you get too caught up in defending the good old days, lets not forget how all those good Christian Americans treated the forebears of YOUR faith. Seems to me the more "Christian" the nation was, the worse it was for minorities like say. . .the LDS church.
__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 11:22 PM   #98
Refugee
 
toscano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,032
Local Time: 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Seems to me the more "Christian" the nation was, the worse it was for minorities like say. . .the LDS church.
Picking on minorities begets picking on minorities....so it is written in the book of polygon 3:16.......
__________________
toscano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 11:34 PM   #99
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
.

some for religious freedom. .
I would say most of the framers wanted religious freedom for their posterity, believed in a Creator, allowed for a pluarity of religions- and did not a state ran Church.

For those that killed, maimed and drove the early LDS Church from 5 different states and eventually to Mexico, they were told:

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 11:37 PM   #100
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Bono's shades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 5,038
Local Time: 05:02 PM
It doesn't matter if the founding fathers were Christians or secularists. What matters is they decided not to establish a state religion.
__________________
Bono's shades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2008, 11:45 PM   #101
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:02 PM
The so-called framers or founding fathers were just a bunch of 'jerk-offs' doing things for their own self interest.

Much like the Southern Confederates that came along some 75-80 years later.

Why romanticized any of them?
__________________
deep is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 12:06 AM   #102
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bono's shades View Post
What matters is they decided not to establish a state religion.

And we don't have one, altho the Left is attempting to push one of their own.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 12:17 AM   #103
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
I can't help but ask...why did you bother?


i'm a glutton for punishment.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 12:39 AM   #104
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 03:02 PM
*yawn*
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 12:43 AM   #105
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
Jefferson is important in this, because of his influence on the first amendment, his views ought to be a significant consideration.

Its also valuable to note how many of the framers were secularists, you can't simply list the religious affiliations of such a wide variety of men in the 18th Century and expect it to mean anything of note. Just because people are religious does not mean they should expect religion in government.
Yes, they respected the secularism of the Enlightenment and saw the dangers of mixing Church and State. But they clearly thought democracy and liberty were only sustainable by a people... well, just ask them.
Quote:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
--John Adams
Quote:
"Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society."
--George Washington"
Quote:
"Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness . . . it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof."
--Continental Congress, 1778
A far cry from "Genuine freedom begins with the rejection of religion" don't ya think?
__________________

__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com