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Old 12-03-2008, 06:45 PM   #76
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Irvine your being a monotheistic triumphalist, the real Godhead is composed of seventeen distinct deities, it should be the almighty creators.

/Fun fact, for a deist the Creator established the laws of nature - for a pantheist the laws of nature are the Creator.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:04 PM   #77
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Genuine freedom begins with the rejection of religion.
The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.
--Karl Marx

A tragic miscalculation of human nature.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:06 PM   #78
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The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.
--Karl Marx

A tragic miscalculation of human nature.


yes, Marx is solely responsible for the holocaust, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.

you'll also note that Marx said "religion" and not "a Creator."

i think maybe Bono would agree with Marx here.

not that that matters.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:14 PM   #79
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/Fun fact, for a deist the Creator established the laws of nature - for a pantheist the laws of nature are the Creator.

Another fun fact. Christians believe God created man in His own image -- the atheist believes God was created in man's image.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:16 PM   #80
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The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.
--Karl Marx

A tragic miscalculation of human nature.
I didn't say that, I said that genuine freedom begins with the rejection of religion.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:22 PM   #81
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Another fun fact. Christians believe God created man in His own image -- the atheist believes God was created in man's image.
Not necessarily, only that the concept of God was created by man, and it takes a lot of different forms.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:24 PM   #82
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yes, Marx is solely responsible for the holocaust, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.

you'll also note that Marx said "religion" and not "a Creator."

i think maybe Bono would agree with Marx here.

not that that matters.
My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism.
--Karl Marx

Neither of which I believe Bono would endorse.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:37 PM   #83
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My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism.
--Karl Marx

Neither of which I believe Bono would endorse.


oh, golly.

are we going to now use Marx in the way that some like to use the "founding fathers"? which is to pick the quotes they like?

the point remains: the "founding fathers" were deists, they were not modern conservative evangelical protestants. their notions of "God" are intentionally ambiguous and amorphous. attempts to label the US a "Christian" nation fall short of understanding either the US or Christianity.

believing in God makes you happy. you find meaning. lovely. i'm happy for you. i wish you well and i hope you find all the peace, comfort, and meaning that you are looking for.

but not everyone believes in any sort of God, not everyone feels as if they are missing anything from their lives because they have no God or no religion.

it remains a fact that "under God" was tossed into the pledge for propaganda purposes.

it also remains a fact that such a post by me was the precise intention of the starter of this thread.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:47 PM   #84
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it also remains a fact that such a post by me was the precise intention of the starter of this thread.
I can't help but ask...why did you bother?
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:50 PM   #85
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I didn't say that, I said that genuine freedom begins with the rejection of religion.
Still a miscalculation of human nature. Freedom without boundaries and rules isn't freedom, it's anarchy. Some of us (including the Founding Fathers) prefer the self imposed boundaries of religion to the tyranny of the state.
And if you measure freedom by happiness, poll after poll shows religious people to live happier, longer lives.

April 2008
Harris Interactive | The Harris Poll - Americans Who Are Religious and Older People Are Happier

HAPPINESS INDEX

The Harris Interactive/Marriott School Happiness Index is calculated by taking an average (mean) of those who strongly agree with statements 1- 4 and 7 and strongly disagree with statements 5, 6,8,9 (see Table 2)

Base:
All Adults
35

Religiousness

Very religious
45

Religious
38

Not Religious
28

Not at all religious
28

Church Attendance

Daily
43

At least once a week
35

Few times a month
30

Twice a year or less
26

Never
28

Born Again

Yes
40
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:57 PM   #86
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And if you measure freedom by happiness, poll after poll shows religious people to live happier, longer lives.
opium des volks?
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:57 PM   #87
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Still a miscalculation of human nature. Freedom without boundaries and rules isn't freedom, it's anarchy.
We have boundaries and rules. We call them "laws" in some cases, in others we call them "common sense".
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:21 PM   #88
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opium des volks?
Opium fürs Volk.

(Opium for the people, the other would be opium of the people)
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:24 PM   #89
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Opium fürs Volk.

(Opium for the people, the other would be opium of the people)
danke schöne mein freund. the latter is the more common translation though, so yeah... i'm not 100% certain of his original phrasing.
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:28 PM   #90
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oh, golly.

are we going to now use Marx in the way that some like to use the "founding fathers"? which is to pick the quotes they like?

the point remains: the "founding fathers" were deists, they were not modern conservative evangelical protestants. their notions of "God" are intentionally ambiguous and amorphous. attempts to label the US a "Christian" nation fall short of understanding either the US or Christianity.
I just don't like to see history being rewritten or misstated. Like
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the "founding fathers" were deists
Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers: # of FoundingFathers % of Founding Fathers

Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7% (Franklin & Jefferson Deist)
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
(includes signers and members of Constitutional Convention)

Only two Deist

Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers.
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