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Old 12-02-2008, 12:07 PM   #31
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I was going to put that on my list but thought it would be funnier if someone else chimed in with it...

Congrats on being so quick
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:45 PM   #32
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*yawn*

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Submitted by Mitch van Biljon (United States), Feb 17, 2008 at 01:25



I suggest you do some additional reading. Making generic statements without evidence does not cut it.

1: The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States - Benjamin Morris
2: "I am sure that there never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a divine interposition in the affairs of the United States" - George Washington
3: Mayflower Compact
4: "Wee all came into these parts with the same end and ayme, namely, to advance the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to enjoy the liberties thereof with puritie and peace and for preserving and propagating the truth and liberties of the gospel" - Confederation of colonies of Massachusetts, New Plymouth, Connecticut and New Haven.
5: The forming of the colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire and the statements reflecting the importance of the Christian faith.
6: Read the motivation and the role of Christianity in the formation of Harvard and Yale.
7: Read the frame of government completed by William Penn in 1682. Read the first legislative act of the state of Pennsylvania in December 1682.
8: The East India Company formed in 1621 stipulated ..."where emigrants went forth under their auspices, and that of the States General of Holland, it should be their duty to send out a schoolmaster, being a pious member of the church, whose office it was to instruct the children, and preside in religious meetings on the Sabbath and other days, leading in the devotions, and reading a sermon, until the regular ministry should be established over them".
9: In 1665 the colonial legislature of New York passed the following..."Whereas, the public worship of God for want of painful and able ministers to instruct the people in the true religion, it is ordered that a church shall be built in each parish."
10: New Jersey Colony provincial seal - "Righteousness exalteth a nation"
11: Thomas Jeferson in his notes on Virginia..."The purposes of the institution would be better answered by maintaining a perpetual mission among the indian tribes, the object of which, besides instructing them in the principles of Christianity...."
12: Sept 1775 at the first Provincial Congress of North Carolina " You are instructed to assent and consent to the establishment of the Christian religion..."
13: Read the words of Patrick Henry, John Hancock, John Adams, James Madison, James Monroe, Samuel Adams, Robert Paine etc., etc. 14 Read "A lecture on the Providence of God in the Government of the World" - Benjamin Franklin 15: In his first message as President Jefferson stated "I shall need the favor of that being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land, and planted them in a Country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life.....I ask you to join me in supplications that he will enlighten the minds of your servants......Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure, when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?- that they are not to be violated except with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that his justice cannot sleep forever. 16: Read George Washington's opening address and farewell addresses. 17: Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears."

Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation. I think you get my point. There are hundreds of these statements and founding documents for the colonies reflecting the Christian heritage of this nation. The bible was the only instrument used in the schools when this nation was being formed. It is a blatant lie and/or distortion of the truth to state that this nation was not based on Christian beliefs. It is a blatant lie to claim that the founding fathers and Jefferson in particular was an athiest.

Near the end of his life, Jefferson said in letters to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, on June 26, 1822; to William Canby, on Sept. 18, 1813; and to Charles Thomson, on Jan. 9, 1816, that: "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man… Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus… I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." Jefferson was simply not an evangelical Christian, but he was a Christian through and through. He was also however aware of the evil that was conducted under the name of Christianity. A friend once noted of Jefferson that he didn't oppose Christianity, just the "tyranny" different sects imposed on people. Look at the supreme court building and the 10 commandments cut in stone throughout the building.

Spend time in the library of congress, do your homework rather than accept all the anti God tripe that many professors share with lazy students. Finally I want you to show me where there is a separation of church and state in any documents outside of the Jefferson letter to the baptists in Danbury. If you took the time to read that letter then you will understand the point he is making i.e. that no official state church will be created to ensure a repeat of the Church of England influence on British government would not take place.

Any other reading would be in direct contradiction of Jefferson's support of the state funding of the printing of bibles. This legislation was passed without a single founding father or leader opposing such. Hardly a validation of the ridiculous concept of a separation of church and state.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:48 PM   #33
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Any other reading would be in direct contradiction of Jefferson's support of the state funding of the printing of bibles. This legislation was passed without a single founding father or leader opposing such. Hardly a validation of the ridiculous concept of a separation of church and state.
Would that be the Jefferson Bible?
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The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was Thomas Jefferson's effort to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists

In an 1803 letter to Joseph Priestley, Jefferson states that he conceived the idea of writing his view of the "Christian System" in a conversation with Dr. Benjamin Rush during 1798–99. He proposes beginning with a review of the morals of the ancient philosophers, moving on to the ethics of the Jews, and concluding with the "principles of a pure deism" taught by Jesus, "omitting the question of his deity." Jefferson explains that he really doesn't have the time, and urges the task on Priestley as the person best equipped to accomplish the taskThe Jefferson Bible begins with an account of Jesus’s birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. Miracles, references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus' resurrection are also absent from the Jefferson Bible.The work ends with the words: “Now, in the place where he was crucified, there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus. And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.” These words correspond to the ending of John 19 in the Bible.
Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The man was a naturalistic deist who lived in a pre-Darwinian time, he didn't believe in the supernatural, if he had known about the blind algorithmic process of evolution he may well have publicly declared atheism.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:49 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by toscano View Post
For example, many religious people are bigots......
You seem to be a hostile person.

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Old 12-02-2008, 10:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
only real religions (mainstream Protestant denominations) should receive state recognition.. .


i expected better from you.


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Old 12-02-2008, 10:53 PM   #36
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"The East India Company formed in 1621 stipulated ..."where emigrants went forth under their auspices, and that of the States General of Holland, it should be their duty to send out a schoolmaster, being a pious member of the church, whose office it was to instruct the children, and preside in religious meetings on the Sabbath and other days, leading in the devotions, and reading a sermon, until the regular ministry should be established over them"."

This is the same East India Company who waged 3 wars against the Chinese in order to sell opium there, nice.............
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
You seem to be a hostile person.

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Bigots bring out the worst in me..........
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
. Apparently, the definition of patriot varies from individual to individual.

.
And the point of the thread.
Can a religious person be a Patriot?

(aside from paying respects).

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Old 12-02-2008, 10:57 PM   #39
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lol.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:01 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Well that's why I started my post with respects to his family, but as you know by now, Diamond always has an underlying motive. He won't be posting any threads to fallen gay soldiers anytime soon calling them patriots.
Why wouldn't I?

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Old 12-02-2008, 11:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
i expected better from you.


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I'm not the problem, I think that the metaphysical claims of theistic religions are equally untrue and I'm not dividing humans between those saved and those damned to hellfire, it is the very nature of religious belief forces the faithful to try and monopolise their belief system, your religious liberties are protected by a strong secular state, if a nation is governed by religious sectarianism it is the religious minorities (such as Mormons) and freethinkers who suffer, secularism guarantees that the law cannot persecute your beliefs or promote those of other groups.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
I'm not the problem, I think that the metaphysical claims of theistic religions are equally untrue and I'm not dividing humans between those saved and those damned to hellfire, it is the very nature of religious belief forces the faithful to try and monopolise their belief system, your religious liberties are protected by a strong secular state, if a nation is governed by religious sectarianism it is the religious minorities (such as Mormons) and freethinkers who suffer, secularism guarantees that the law cannot persecute your beliefs or promote those of other groups.

Well if our country was founded by atheists-you may have had a fighting chance.

It's not like the Pilgrims were sent to a Penal colony at the bottom of the world.





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Old 12-03-2008, 12:05 AM   #43
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Why wouldn't I?

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That would require to allow them to serve openly, or at least admit they are equal.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:23 AM   #44
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Well if our country was founded by atheists-you may have had a fighting chance.

It's not like the Pilgrims were sent to a Penal colony at the bottom of the world.





<>
While your most important founding fathers may have been deists rather than atheists, they were definitely secularists, and that protects the freedom of belief and unbelief equally.

Australia doesn't have a bill of rights, we enjoy state censorship of art, entertainment and internet as well as taxpayer support for religious schools, I think that the American model has stronger guarantees on individual freedom and secularism (even though it often fails).
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:51 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
That would require to allow them to serve openly, or at least admit they are equal.
Being of a different sexual orientation doesn't mean they are less equal to any other service men.

In the future I would appreciate if you would stop trying to put words in my mouth.

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