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Old 12-06-2008, 04:06 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Diamond, i think the actual address was given in the Senate chamber (then in NY) before public ceremonies then switched to St Paul's.


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Ok, here's what I understand:

On the 30th of April Washington was inaugurated President of the republic. The ceremony took place in the open gallery of the old City Hall (afterward called Federal Hall), on the site of the present Custom-House, in the presence of a vast multitude. Washington was dressed in a suit of dark brown cloth and white silk *stockings (note potentail Gaydar situation), all of American manufacture. His hair was powdered and dressed in the fashion of the day, clubbed and ribboned. The oath of office was administered by Robert R. Livingston, then chancellor of the State of New York. The open Bible (then and now the property of St. John's Lodge of Freemasons of the City of New York), on which the President laid his hand, was held on a rich crimson velvet cushion by Mr. Otis, Secretary of the Senate. Near them were John Adams, who had been chosen Vice-President; George Clinton, Governor of New York; Philip Schuyler, John Jay, General Knox, Ebenezer Hazard, Samuel Osgood and other distinguished men. After taking the oath and kissing the sacred book reverently, Washington closed his eyes and in an attitude of devotion said: "So help me God!" The Chancellor exclaimed, "It is done!" and then turning to the people he shouted, "Long live George Washington, the first President of the United States." That shout was echoed and re-echoed by the multitude, when the President and the members of Congress retired to the Senate Chamber, where Washington pronounced a most impressive inaugural address. At the conclusion, he and the members went in procession to St. Paul's Church (which, with the other churches, had been opened for prayers at nine o'clock that morning), and there they invoked the blessing of Almighty God upon the new government. The first person who grasped Washington's hand in congratulation, after the ceremony, was Richard Henry Lee, his friend from childhood, to whom he had written when they were boys nine years of age-"I am going to get a whip-top soon, and you may see it and whip it." How many human whip-tops had these staunch patriots managed since they wrote their childish epistles!

I think it was all a CIA plot thru time travel duping the early American into thinking the avowed secularists were indeed God fearing Christians to control the citizenry.

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Old 12-06-2008, 04:11 AM   #137
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..and here in this oft misinterpreted picture George is kneeling because he dropped one of his mittens while riding and looking for it in the snow.

Notice his hands were cold; therefore he is rubbing them together.

He also closed his eyes because of an intense flare up of a migraine headache-while contemplating where to search for his gloves.

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Old 12-06-2008, 04:34 AM   #138
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when the President and the members of Congress retired to the Senate Chamber, where Washington pronounced a most impressive inaugural address.
In fact, the address starts off;
"Fellow-Citizens of the Senate and of the House of Representatives"

I'm still trying to figure why if all our Founding Fathers were Deists (who didn't believe God intervenes in the affairs of man), would insist on His blessing our new government and opening every session of the Continental Congress, U.S Congress and U.S Supreme Court with a prayer?

I thought that all started in the 50's in response to Communism and Rock n Roll.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:52 AM   #139
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Nobody is claiming that all the founding fathers were deists, only that they were mostly secularists (evidence in the primary documents) and some of the more influential were not Christians.

I feel that the clear separation between Church and State advocated by Jefferson is the ideal, and even if he was a literalist theist who only wanted separation so his fundamentalist beliefs wouldn't be persecuted I would agree. Once you allow some religion to be infused in legislation, a little bit of favor here, a slight rewording there, the state is getting involved where it shouldn't. The government should not recognise any Gods, but not prevent peoples free exercise of religion.

Look at the first war that the USA waged against Muslim thugs, the explicit statement in the Treaty of Tripoli that undercuts the historical revisionism to claim America as a Christian state
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Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
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Old 12-06-2008, 05:25 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post


..and here in this oft misinterpreted picture George is kneeling because he dropped one of his mittens while riding and looking for it in the snow.

Notice his hands were cold; therefore he is rubbing them together.

He also closed his eyes because of an intense flare up of a migraine headache-while contemplating where to search for his gloves.

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Well, again to be accurate it's a painting "The Prayer at Valley Forge" rather than a picture. But a nice painting at that and one unlikely to appear in any current public school history book.

Perhaps, rather than a lost mitten, he's looking for the Abominable Snowman, The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy, The Right to Same-Sex Marriage or some other mythical notion.
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Old 12-06-2008, 06:28 AM   #141
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Nobody is claiming that all the founding fathers were deists,
Reread the thread.
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Once you allow some religion to be infused in legislation, a little bit of favor here, a slight rewording there, the state is getting involved where it shouldn't. The government should not recognise any Gods, but not prevent peoples free exercise of religion.
You sure? Abolition, temperance, opposition to the death penalty, abortion or same-sex marriage and the civil rights movement all have roots in religious interpretation. Imposing public policy because some (often of different faiths) people support it for religious reasons is not imposing religion.
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Look at the first war that the USA waged against Muslim thugs, the explicit statement in the Treaty of Tripoli that undercuts the historical revisionism to claim America as a Christian state
To say we were founded on the Christian Religion would imply federal religious tests or mandatory worship, which the Founders were dead set against. But it wasn't that they were secularists, it's that they thought the matter properly regulated by state, not federal, law. In fact, all but 2 of the original states did have religious tests.
It would be rewriting history to claim we were founded as a Christian nation, but so is trying to argue that we were founded to be a secular nation or that our nation and it's Founding Fathers weren't primarily Christian and our laws thusly influenced.
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Old 12-06-2008, 07:45 AM   #142
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I wrote the posts alluding to Jefferson, Franklin and Paine; I know what I intended and so did most responders.
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You sure? Abolition, temperance, opposition to the death penalty, abortion or same-sex marriage and the civil rights movement all have roots in religious interpretation. Imposing public policy because some (often of different faiths) people support it for religious reasons is not imposing religion.
And the lord hath delivered him into my hands...

You have just conceded.

Abolition was advanced on non-religious grounds by enlightenment thinkers while it was justified in explicitly religious terms by slave-owners. That blacks are the sons of Ham and bear the curse of Cain made slavery alright with Christianity. Even if all abolitionists were conservative Christians (as opposed to dissenters, radicals and a host of infidels) you can't say they were any more justified in religious terms than bible-quoting slave holders. If you take a second and think about what makes anything right or wrong in the context of slavery religion rapidly evaporates, because both sides can rightly claim religious justification it can't go one way or the other; the reason that Wilberforce was right inevitably back to secular principles of humanitarianism and human solidarity.

Moving along to gay marriage, you've just undercut any argument for civil rights, and told the truth that opposition to gay marriage is ultimately religious. God hates faggotry, so Leviticus must trump equality under the law. Setting up laws which undermine the stability of relationships, as a means of coercion against homosexuality, is wrong. It's almost impossible to justify homophobia in secular terms; homosexuality isn't against nature, it doesn't cause harm and gays are citizens - you seem to take pride in championing bigotry, as if having politicians legislate a Judeo-Christian agenda by banning gay marriage isn't pursuing a religious agenda. You are wrong on this issue, I hope that 50 years from now the gays won't let the mainstream Churches pretend that they were the vanguard of equality, I hope that their reactionary positions are immortalised, because they are so utterly illiberal I would hate for them to be whitewashed.

Onto temperance, I like to drink - its fun, delivers some pleasure and acts a social lubricant. I am aware of the dangers of alcohol, I accept those when I choose to drink, I consent to whatever harm I am doing to my body through moderate drinking. I ought to have sovereignty over my body and mind, thats covered by drinking, prohibition strikes at the core of this principle. When a state makes laws for hardline protestants and enforces them against everybody it is a moral wrong (under my elected framework of individual rights). This example of religious belief running policy shows the danger, it is enforcing religion on people and robbing them of choice, it is respecting an establishment of religion.

You only see the first amendment as a prohibition on state church, wholly ignoring the context of the text, if you take wider evidence such as Jeffersons letter to the Danbury congregationalists it becomes a more separationist statement. '

I stand for freedom of religion and religious pluralism, I think the government shouldn't force you to live by, or affirm, other peoples beliefs; you do not. You want non-believers to affirm that a God exists in the pledge of allegiance, you want your religious freedom - and state recognition of your religious beliefs; that is wrong.

The secularists are on the pro-freedom side, the theocrats (the appropriate antonym of secularist) are imposing and autocratic.

You wondered about my statement of abandoning religion being the start of genuine freedom, I think you answered my rhetorical question better than I could have, only in a state that doesn't recognise any religious beliefs, that shows no preference between them, can a genuinely free society begin to exist.
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Old 12-06-2008, 09:37 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
.

he's looking for the Abominable Snowman, The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy, The Right to Same-Sex Marriage or some other mythical notion.
or

He could have been acknowleding in a belief and Faith in God that you and yours have tried to expugn from the public and



recorded USA history.

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Old 12-06-2008, 09:47 AM   #144
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Ever read Lincoln's Proclamation declaring a national holiday?


And people wonder why we started putting In God We Trust on coins the next year. Because we did... and still do.
Some of you do.

Some of us don't.

Doesn't make your motto ours.
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Old 12-06-2008, 09:54 AM   #145
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And Lincoln did have a bit of unbelief in him

Plus, he share his bed with another man.
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Old 12-06-2008, 09:56 AM   #146
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Some of you do.

Some of us don't.

Doesn't make your motto ours.
However 90% of Americans do believe in God.

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Old 12-06-2008, 09:59 AM   #147
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You are being deceitful, the numbers that believe in a personal God are only around 60%.

Interestingly enough most denominations have majorities that believe there are other paths to heaven, the exceptions are the Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who believe they have the one true faith.
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Old 12-06-2008, 10:04 AM   #148
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You are being deceitful, the numbers that believe in a personal God are only around 60%.

Interestingly enough most denominations have majorities that believe there are other paths to heaven, the exceptions are the Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who believe they have the one true faith.
And Mormons, Catholics, JWs, Muslims and Hindus have that Right.

Great country huh?

Aside frm the accusatory tone of your first sentence, perhaps we're citing different data.


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Old 12-06-2008, 10:06 AM   #149
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People are free to believe absurdities, they don't have the right to inflict it upon others without consent (unless they are children).
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Old 12-06-2008, 10:07 AM   #150
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absurdities
inflict

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