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Old 07-22-2014, 03:40 AM   #121
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If the rebels are innocent, I cannot conceive why they would restrict access for the reason I've already stated - it would be a publicity goldmine for them against Kiev. They would bend over backwards to ensure investigators find every shred of evidence against whoever did it. At worst, the rebels would look open, transparent, and efficient to the outside world; at best, it would incriminate their enemies and give a boost to the rebel cause.

Instead, by behaving in an obstructive manner, they are creating a distinct impression of guilt.
That's pretty much what I was getting at as well. I truly cannot see why else they would hold off the investigation this much. If they let everything happen as quickly as possible, it would benefit their position and cause instead. Right now, it's incriminating them more than ever.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:06 AM   #122
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But what about the sattelite reports the US and Ukrainian governments have produced already, stating the missile was launched from rebel territory? The phone calls, video stuff of them claiming to have shot another ukrainian plane, with later reports of them finding out they accidentally shot a passenger aircraft?
Do you reckon it's all faked?
As a rule every single piece of "leaked" audio should be treated with caution. I know one of the leaked audios was posted from the day before the crash happened, as far as potential evidence goes they're probably the most 'unstable.' But with many others it's just guesswork, same with trying to decipher which power is accurate with what they're saying about the other. Also as a rule, I try not to take anything Russia or the US or what Ukraine say as the cold hard truth, even though it can be easy to be sucked in sometimes.

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They could be fearful that allowing investigators who are potentially pro western (the Dutch and the Malaysians, for example) would allow for exchanging of information.
At the very least, we now know the Malaysians have the black boxes and that the bodies seem to be heading to the Dutch now. Thankfully.
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Old 07-22-2014, 11:04 AM   #123
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Do you trust anyone or anything?
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:35 PM   #124
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Another Malaysian Airline Disaster?

I suspect the reason the rebels are restricting access is primarily military.

They likely suspect (with good reason, I'd say) that there may be spies from western governments, or even Ukraine itself, in with the monitors and humanitarian agencies. The CIA has admitted publicly that they have done so and although they have pledged to stop, there's really nothing stopping the Dutch or Brits sending someone to gather info on troop positions, equipment, command structure, etc and then passing said info immediately to Kiev.

Morally it's indefensible, but I can understand from a pragmatic point of view why they are being reticent.


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Old 07-22-2014, 12:51 PM   #125
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Do you trust anyone or anything?

I think he has a right to be skeptical of what's been presented, as none of the sides in this whole fiasco have been perfectly upfront and forthright. Sometimes though Vlad I think you take that idea a bit farther than you need to.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is most often the correct one. I think some over eager separatist commander in a Buk launcher saw a blip on the radar and mistook it for a Ukrainian military plane and fired without verifying. I can't see how anyone on any side would benefit at all from deliberately shooting down a civilian airliner.

All this being said, with all of Russia's talk about people having the right to self determination and protection of beleaguered ethnic groups in foreign nations, does this mean he's going to allow the Chechens some autonomy, or tolerate foreign governments selling arms to them now?


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Old 07-22-2014, 04:14 PM   #126
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Sure those audio tapes can be forged, but what about the sattelite stuff? No country has disputed those sofar, while plenty of countries have sattelites that could've seen this.


I'm glad the bodies are finally flying over. We have a national day of mourning here tomorrow, and there'll be a minute of complete silence when the planes arrive.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:07 PM   #127
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All this being said, with all of Russia's talk about people having the right to self determination and protection of beleaguered ethnic groups in foreign nations, does this mean he's going to allow the Chechens some autonomy, or tolerate foreign governments selling arms to them now?
I am also waiting for the day when Putin recognizes Chechen sovereignty. Think we'll be waiting for a while.
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:28 AM   #128
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I suspect the reason the rebels are restricting access is primarily military.

They likely suspect (with good reason, I'd say) that there may be spies from western governments, or even Ukraine itself, in with the monitors and humanitarian agencies. The CIA has admitted publicly that they have done so and although they have pledged to stop, there's really nothing stopping the Dutch or Brits sending someone to gather info on troop positions, equipment, command structure, etc and then passing said info immediately to Kiev.

Morally it's indefensible, but I can understand from a pragmatic point of view why they are being reticent.
While I agree that the 'rebels' have their own interests to look after, I would like to point out that it took them 5 days.
5 whole days.

That's a day per month that the Crimean crisis has been going on.

It seems dead bodies have been held hostage for political reasons.
To try and manage this new conflict.
It's despicable.
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Old 07-23-2014, 07:24 AM   #129
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Families of people who were on that flight reported to the newspaper today that they tried to call their loved ones phones one more time..... and it was answered by an eastern European sounding voice.

Multiple reports have stated that there didn't seem to be any phones or wallets or cameras left at the disaster spot.


And people still try to tell me these rebels are human?


Despicable and disgusting.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-23-2014, 07:55 AM   #130
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And people still try to tell me these rebels are human?
Sure they're human. Just not particularly good ones.

Honestly when you watch them in interviews it becomes quickly apparent that most of them are basically uneducated yokels who have taken up arms and feel very macho about it. This isn't a professionally trained, disciplined military, but random villagers. If you read through a lot of the excerpts from the ICTY trials you'll find that most often, men in the Balkans who took charge of some small brigade or divisions and became big honchos in the end ordering ethnic cleansing were guys with long histories of violence and not a whole hell of a lot of other success in life. It kind of makes sense that in an uncontrolled war zone, this is the "cream" that rises to the top.
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:50 PM   #131
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I don't know if you guys can find Dutch channels on your tv, if you can, check NL1 right now. The cars are on their way from the airport to the military barracks where they will identify the victims. It's quite a trip, but wherever they go, everywhere people are standing next to the road, on bridges and the oncoming traffic is at a standstill. Insanely impressive. I truly feel really, really small right now. Everywhere I passed today there were a lot of flags half down. Never really felt patriotistic before, but damn. I'm proud of the way my country is handling things right now. So respectful.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-23-2014, 01:55 PM   #132
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I don't know if you guys can find Dutch channels on your tv, if you can, check NL1 right now. The cars are on their way from the airport to the military barracks where they will identify the victims. It's quite a trip, but wherever they go, everywhere people are standing next to the road, on bridges and the oncoming traffic is at a standstill. Insanely impressive. I truly feel really, really small right now. Everywhere I passed today there were a lot of flags half down. Never really felt patriotistic before, but damn. I'm proud of the way my country is handling things right now. So respectful.


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Old 07-23-2014, 11:54 PM   #133
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Rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets days after downing of MH17 | World news | theguardian.com - at least this time the rebels didn't cock up and shoot down a civilian airliner?
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:15 AM   #134
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Sickening that they are still continuing after all this...
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:25 PM   #135
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Sickening that they are still continuing after all this...

Of course they are, it's a war. I would be stunned if they stopped shooting.


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