Another Malaysian Airline Disaster? - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-19-2014, 10:16 PM   #91
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axver View Post
I thought this was a good read: The Infowar Rages in Moscow
The thing with these sorts of articles is that it assumes that one side is doing the propagandizing, when both West and East have been part of it. You can find countless headlines that sought to immediately blame Russia from the other side.

Quote:
And Vlad, stop peddling the incoherent conspiracy theory that Ukraine shot down the plane. Besides the fact that Ukraine has no motive to do so, the rebels' post-crash behaviour is more than sufficiently incriminating. Nobody complicit in downing a plane would be making access to the crash site so difficult for investigators
I'm not calling it as fact, I just believe it's possible. Your bit about the 'rebels making it hard for investigators' is not accurate, because there are photos showing that these observers had made it. So while you accuse me of being the """conspiracy theorist""", why are you so readily believing what Kiev have been saying? And there's nothing to suggest that mainstream Ukrainian media are any more trustworthy than mainstream Russian media, if you look at who owns them.

An independent Ukrainian journalist had been on the site of the crash, and what he observed contradicted the 'rah rah rah rebels ruining everything' narrative.

 

'I didn’t expect to see what I saw on the crash site. It’s a nightmare. Mess. Honestly, I’m not too emotional but…

I want to say something before I publish this brutality. About lies that UA mass media had spread:

1) Militias allow journalists at the crash site without problems, the other thing is that there aren’t cowards from TSN and other “professionals”;
2) No one steals anything from the place, there are piles of things and equipment, everything’s stacked;
3) Dozens volunteer at the crash site, look for bodies and flight recorders, help;

Now the dilemma. I though about how to publish these materials. Decided to retouch the photos. I’ve identified one child that has been on the flight. Don’t think it’s necessary to publish photo as it is. It’s really terrifying.

I think I will publish it at night, sorry for waiting. It’s a tragedy and the one who’s done it must bear responsibility. And I’m almost 100% sure about who did it and why.'
__________________

__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 12:38 AM   #93
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 151,035
Local Time: 01:28 PM
Some parts of this article gave me a morbid chuckle: Top conspiracy theories sparked by MH17 disaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
The thing with these sorts of articles is that it assumes that one side is doing the propagandizing, when both West and East have been part of it. You can find countless headlines that sought to immediately blame Russia from the other side.
Well yes, but that's only if you're stupid enough to read the Sun (and equivalents) or if you consider dispassionate reports of Tony Abbott's kneejerk "diplomacy" to be endorsing him.

Quote:
I'm not calling it as fact, I just believe it's possible.
No, it's completely implausible - and the main Twitter report it's based on was fake. Even if it wasn't fake, though, how many people claimed to see MH370 flying low/exploding/followed? Shit-tonnes, from oil rigs near Vietnam to a village on the Maldives. Those didn't work out to be legit, and there's no reason to believe this either without any meaningful evidence or motive.

Quote:
Your bit about the 'rebels making it hard for investigators' is not accurate, because there are photos showing that these observers had made it.
Firing warning shots is a normal part of any investigation?

Quote:
So while you accuse me of being the """conspiracy theorist""", why are you so readily believing what Kiev have been saying? And there's nothing to suggest that mainstream Ukrainian media are any more trustworthy than mainstream Russian media, if you look at who owns them.
Where have I cited Kiev or the Ukrainian media? Nowhere.

Look, I know you are deeply suspicious of, even hostile to, the major Western powers and those who they back or prop up. Not without justification in many cases too, though I don't think disdain towards Western powers should lead to any kind of generosity of goodwill towards Russia/pro-Russian rebels, who can be even more dodgy. It's no secret that practically every major Russian media outlet is compromised and unreliable to a significant extent. Many Western outlets are too, be it by sensationalist commercial imperative or overly cosy relationships with governments, but you can't apply that to the whole field. There is a reason why I am happy to take seriously outlets such as the Guardian.
__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 12:55 AM   #94
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axver View Post
Where have I cited Kiev or the Ukrainian media? Nowhere.

Look, I know you are deeply suspicious of, even hostile to, the major Western powers and those who they back or prop up. Not without justification in many cases too, though I don't think disdain towards Western powers should lead to any kind of generosity of goodwill towards Russia/pro-Russian rebels, who can be even more dodgy. It's no secret that practically every major Russian media outlet is compromised and unreliable to a significant extent. Many Western outlets are too, be it by sensationalist commercial imperative or overly cosy relationships with governments, but you can't apply that to the whole field. There is a reason why I am happy to take seriously outlets such as the Guardian.
It's not that I'm feeling any sort of goodwill towards the Russian government or the rebels, and even if it did seem like it before I can tell you it's not reflective of my views. What it all comes down to for me is, I seriously doubt that Russia would do this given its current pariah status in the negative sphere (and to a high degree, rightly so), and for them to shoot down a civilian aircraft would be akin to suicide. It makes no sense from their point of view to do something like this, and I don't think Putin (despite being an objectionable human being politically), is idiotic enough to order this sort of catastrophe. And if they had tried to frame Ukraine by it, nobody from the West would take them seriously and understandably so!

Honestly, even despite my entertaining of a possibility that the Ukrainian government had a deliberate involvement in the downing of the plane, it's more likely that it had been an accident by the Ukrainian army. I don't believe that the Ukrainian government, nor Russia, nor the rebels are all sadistic enough to do this deliberately. With that said, I wish a proper ceasefire would have been established following the disaster, but the Ukrainian army started shelling the city of Lugansk not long after where approximately 40 or so civilians were killed.

The worst part is all of this could've easily been avoided.
__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 02:26 AM   #95
Blue Crack Addict
 
The Sad Punk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: VEGA INTL NITE SKOOL
Posts: 28,691
Local Time: 11:58 AM
Why are so many media personalities still saying "the" Ukraine? Are they also reporting on war in Zaire?
__________________
The Sad Punk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 02:52 AM   #96
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 12:58 PM
To tell you the truth I still don't know why that happens.
__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 05:56 AM   #97
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
What it all comes down to for me is, I seriously doubt that Russia would do this given its current pariah status in the negative sphere (and to a high degree, rightly so), and for them to shoot down a civilian aircraft would be akin to suicide. It makes no sense from their point of view to do something like this, and I don't think Putin (despite being an objectionable human being politically), is idiotic enough to order this sort of catastrophe. And if they had tried to frame Ukraine by it, nobody from the West would take them seriously and understandably so!

Honestly, even despite my entertaining of a possibility that the Ukrainian government had a deliberate involvement in the downing of the plane, it's more likely that it had been an accident by the Ukrainian army. I don't believe that the Ukrainian government, nor Russia, nor the rebels are all sadistic enough to do this deliberately.
No, I don't think this was a deliberate act either. From the reports I've read across the media, it seems that the pro-Russian separatists accidentally shot down the aircraft (believing it was an Ukrainian military aircraft).

After the bodies have been repatriated the other questions can be answered. What exactly is/was Russia's involvement in arming & training the separatists, especially concerning the use of SAM equipment? Why was this route declared safe? How much knowledge was there that the separatists have the possession of SAM equipment that can reach up to 10 km in the air? Etc.
__________________
Popmartijn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 06:01 AM   #98
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 12:58 PM
I think it's as good as fact that the rebels didn't have the necessary systems to shoot it down. What they had of it was broken and unusable, and it's not the sort of thing you could lug across the border easily seeing as border checkpoints are constantly being fought over.

I read somewhere that said missile system takes a long time to learn how to use, and it's not exactly the most simple system is it? Anyone could have triggered it by accident.
__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 07:07 AM   #99
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
I think it's as good as fact that the rebels didn't have the necessary systems to shoot it down. What they had of it was broken and unusable, and it's not the sort of thing you could lug across the border easily seeing as border checkpoints are constantly being fought over.

I read somewhere that said missile system takes a long time to learn how to use, and it's not exactly the most simple system is it? Anyone could have triggered it by accident.
Actually, from what I understand the rebels did have the necessary systems. Either they captured it from the Ukrainian military or it was transported from Russia. Which is apparently not that difficult (the transport from Russia) as the border is incredibly porous right now. I'm not aware there's much fighting over border checkpoints on between the eastern border of Ukraine (controlled by the rebels) and Russia.
__________________
Popmartijn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 07:23 AM   #100
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 12:58 PM
But who to trust though? The Ukrainians have said the rebels don't have an operating missile system, the rebels themselves say the same thing, and if it so happened that the Russians sent it across the border and the rebels received it then the Ukrainians would find out easily. It boggles the mind, in the event that this is true it would be a silly move on the part of the rebels and Russia, though even if an operational missile system was in their possession (I'm feeling doubtful about this, to just lug a large missile system in to shoot down a civilian plane and then lug it back over the border again sounds farfetched) I still don't think it goes as far as to prove that the rebels indeed shot the plane.

It might be easy to pass through some border checkpoints at this time but it's still a massive risk and it screams of a bit of a suicide mission.
__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 08:30 AM   #101
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
But who to trust though? The Ukrainians have said the rebels don't have an operating missile system, the rebels themselves say the same thing, and if it so happened that the Russians sent it across the border and the rebels received it then the Ukrainians would find out easily.
I thought the rebels did claim earlier that they had captured a SAM system. And as for Ukraine finding out when the rebels would have such a system, earlier in the week the rebels had shot down a military transport aircraft (from the Ukraine military). Granted, that aircraft wasn't flying at 10 km up in the air (I believe it was 7 km or so), but still.

Quote:
It boggles the mind, in the event that this is true it would be a silly move on the part of the rebels and Russia, though even if an operational missile system was in their possession (I'm feeling doubtful about this, to just lug a large missile system in to shoot down a civilian plane and then lug it back over the border again sounds farfetched)
I think you have to disregard the premise the rebels (with help from Russia) did all of this just to shoot down a civilian plane. In my view, that was never their plan. They wanted to have and use a large missile system to shoot down Ukraine military aircrafts. That was their reason get hands on a SAM system (whether capturing one from the Ukraine military or provided by Russia). Of course, now that they accidentally shot down a civilian aircraft they wanted to have it back over the border again as soon as possible. They don't want any evidence of that.
__________________
Popmartijn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 08:49 AM   #102
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popmartijn View Post
I thought the rebels did claim earlier that they had captured a SAM system. And as for Ukraine finding out when the rebels would have such a system, earlier in the week the rebels had shot down a military transport aircraft (from the Ukraine military). Granted, that aircraft wasn't flying at 10 km up in the air (I believe it was 7 km or so), but still.
They did, you're correct, but they were always upfront about it not being operational and that it was in repairs at the time that the plane was struck. Ukraine did state that if they were to leave behind any weapons or artillery that they made sure that they were damaged and not readily used by the rebels.

Quote:
I think you have to disregard the premise the rebels (with help from Russia) did all of this just to shoot down a civilian plane. In my view, that was never their plan. They wanted to have and use a large missile system to shoot down Ukraine military aircrafts. That was their reason get hands on a SAM system (whether capturing one from the Ukraine military or provided by Russia). Of course, now that they accidentally shot down a civilian aircraft they wanted to have it back over the border again as soon as possible. They don't want any evidence of that.
Right, although I'm still not convinced that it was them who shot the plane down. I don't think any of the parties would have wanted this to happen.

At the time being it just seems futile to speculate, and although it's the unlikeliest scenario of the lot, I don't think the effect of the reported presence of two jet fighters can be completely discounted yet. But it's all just a circle of conflicting info and it's really hard to decipher what is truth and what is wrong.
__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 10:13 AM   #103
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,295
Local Time: 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
I think it's as good as fact that the rebels didn't have the necessary systems to shoot it down.
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, much less how you're stating it as a fact.

There are plenty of nations with space satellites that have the capability of pinpointing the origin of the missile. The Americans have already unequivocally stated that it was from rebel-held territory and to my knowledge no other nation with satellite access has disputed it.

So there are really two options - the rebels shot the plane down, or the Russians crossed the border and did it. Since #2 makes no sense at all, it stands that #1 is it.
__________________
anitram is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 06:52 PM   #104
Refugee
 
The_Pac_Mule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,342
Local Time: 09:28 PM
From Business Insider:

There's A Mountain Of Evidence Linking Russia To The Downing Of The Malaysia Airliner

by PAUL SZOLDRA

Quote:
There's a growing body of evidence that has emerged that links Russia to the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine, despite the best efforts of pro-Russian militants to scrub the record.

Just 25 miles from Donetsk in pro-Russian held territory, the flight carrying 298 passengers and crew was brought down on Thursday, killing everyone on board. The U.S. believes it was likely shot down by an SA-11 missile fired from a Buk surface-to-air missile system.

Both Russian President Vladimir Putin and pro-Russian militants have deflected, attempting to blame Ukraine for the crash. Later, the top rebel commander put forth a conspiracy theory that the passengers actually died days before, The Washington Times reports.

While a full investigation of the site could help vindicate Russia and confirm these theories, it's noteworthy that pro-Russian militants have continually blocked workers from going near the crash, according to The New York Times and others.

As we look at the evidence available, it's easy to see why.

Pro-Russian militants allegedly discussed the receipt of Buk missile systems just days before.

On July 14, a pro-Russian militant and a man identified as "Oreon," an intelligence officer with Russia, allegedly talk about taking down planes with Buk missile systems, according to audio released by Ukraine's security service.

"Excellent. They [militants in rebel territory proclaimed as Donetsk People's Republic] are avenging for planes today, but we have a couple of days more," Oreon allegedly says. "We already have Buk, we'll be shooting down them to hell."

As The Interpreter notes, at several points in the conversation, separatists talk about the Buk missile system crossing the border, along with Russian crews. The recordings, presented by Kiev as key evidence of Moscow's involvement with the rebels, was confirmed as authentic by U.S. intelligence analysts, AFP reported Sunday.

Video posted online shows a Buk missile launcher traveling through the rebel-held town of Snizhne.

The Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs released a video it described as a Buk missile system being transported in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border. This video, which appears to show a Buk (with one missile missing), could not be independently verified.

But another video posted to YouTube on July 17 is much more revealing. It was described as showing a Buk traveling near Snizhne, a rebel-controlled area southeast of the MH17 crash site. While the original video was removed for unknown reasons, Eliot Higgins, a well-respected blogger who specializes in identifying weapons in Syria and Ukraine, confirmed the location as Snizhne through geolocation techniques.

A reporter with The Associated Press on the ground in Snizhne also observed the Buk missile system, along with seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a gas station. In an interview with Business Insider, a resident spotted the missile system in Torez as it was being towed to Snizhne.

The Buk is a highly sophisticated system that requires specialized training to operate.

In a briefing at the Pentagon on Friday, Rear Admiral John Kirby told reporters that it "strains credulity" to think pro-Russian separatists believed to have shot down MH17 didn't have at least some help from Moscow. Kirby said the Buk is a "sophisticated piece of technology" that would likely require technical assistance from Russia.

Indeed, Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove said in June the U.S. military's intelligence was that rebels were being trained in tanks and anti-aircraft capability across the border, before heading back into eastern Ukraine to put it into practice.

According to IHS Jane's Defense, a resource for intelligence and defense analysis, operating a Buk requires a trained crew. While the government of Ukraine also has Buk missile systems, Jane's notes that the Ukrainian military has none of the systems in the region near the MH17 crash, as they were overtaken by pro-Russian separatists.

"The system is not a simple system to use. You need at least four to six months of training and ongoing training to operate it," Ronald Bishop, a former U.S. Air Force missile expert, told Australia's Warwick Daily News. "To fire this system you need to have highly-specialized military training."

The pro-Russian separatist leader boasted on social media of downing an aircraft shortly after MH17 went down.

Posting on VKontakte, Russia's version of Facebook, the pro-Russian leader Igor Strelkov wrote that "we have warned them — not to fly 'in our sky.'" Strelkov, a Russian citizen who is linked to Russian intelligence, said an AN-26 (a Ukrainian military transport) had been shot down, apparently not realizing MH17 was a civilian airliner.

Some have questioned whether this posting was "faked" or came from an unofficial Strelkov fan group. The Interpreter, which has tracked the Ukraine conflict long before MH17, notes the posting is very likely legitimate, as it was cited by a number of Russian news websites who often quote from "Strelkov's Dispatches" as official word from the rebels.

Catherine Fitzpatrick at The Interpreter writes:

From our long observation of this Vkontakte group and other Strelkov-related pages, we would have to say this is not the case – this group’s publications have long been cited by regional media and the same talking points as the dispatch were also used by Russian state media and Ukrainian media from other separatist sources .

First, the VKontakte group isn’t just a random fan group; it’s an established group of supporters now numbering more than 137,000 followers which has been publishing “Strelkov Dispatches” for weeks, many of which have tracked events corroborated by other sources or which are consistent with the separatists’ narrative as Strelkov himself says on camera in video addresses or at news conferences uploaded to YouTube.

Pro-Russian militants were reportedly caught on an audio recording talking about shooting down a military transport before realizing they had likely downed a civilian plane.

Shortly after the airliner had crashed, pro-Russian militants were reportedly caught on leaked phone calls, apparently discussing the shooting before eventually realizing they had shot down a civilian aircraft instead of a military target.

"It’s 100% a passenger aircraft,” a militant nicknamed "Major" is recorded as saying, noting that he saw no weapons nearby. "Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper."

In another of the leaked calls, one militant asks, "What was it doing in Ukraine's territory?" Another, identified as Nikolay Kozitsin, responds, "That means they were carrying spies. F--- them, got it? ... They shouldn't be f---ing flying. There is a war going on."

Militants have allegedly tried to destroy evidence and block investigators and reporters from the crash site.


If the pro-Russian militants are confident that it was the government of Ukraine that shot down MH17, it would make sense that they would allow a full investigation and keep the crash site undisturbed so that link could be made. But as many have found out, they have been doing the exact opposite.
Besides deleting many of the social-media postings already referenced, militants blocked observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) from going to the crash site, at one point even firing a warning shot, Spencer Ackerman reports in The Guardian.

"The assumption is they're trying to remove evidence of what they did," a senior U.S. official briefed on the latest intelligence told The Wall Street Journal on Saturday.

In another phone call released by Ukraine's security service, pro-Russian militants sound frantic in their search for the MH17 black box. "I'll try to find out [where the box is]," a militant named "Oleksiy" says. His commander responds, "Do it really quick. Urgently. Moscow asks where the boxes are," while urging the militant to keep the black box out of the hands of the OSCE.

Pro-Russian separatists said on Sunday they had what were presumed to be the black boxes under their control, which were delivered to Donetsk, according to Reuters.

The government of Ukraine alleged that the pro-Russian separatists removed 38 bodies from the field and brought them to a mortuary in Donetsk, in addition to requesting heavy trucks to carry wreckage to Russia, The Guardian reports.

In response to bodies being moved, a rebel commander only known as "Grumpy" gave The Guardian neither confirmation or denial: "Maybe they did it, maybe not. I personally didn't do that."


"At this stage, any talk of a credible [MH17] investigation is ridiculous," tweeted Max Seddon, a reporter with BuzzFeed who has been to the scene of the crash. "It'll be a small miracle if relatives get the bodies semi-intact." In a report of what he has seen at the site posted at BuzzFeed, Seddon wrote that "Grumpy" has let no one pass.

Intelligence and satellite imagery gathered by the U.S. and EU, along with an investigation on the ground, will almost certainly turn up more information on what happened to MH17. But the open-source intelligence suggests pro-Russian rebels, aided by Moscow, likely shot down what they thought was a military aircraft.

IHS Jane's Reuben Johnson writes:

The most plausible theory, said a NATO intelligence specialist, is that the separatists believed that they were shooting at another military target like the Antonov An-26 that was brought down earlier that week. “When they saw that they had instead shot down a Malaysian airliner they panicked, which accounts for their panicked deletions of all social media postings related to this incident,” said the NATO source.

"This definitely could have been an error," Steve Zaloga, a missile systems expert, told Technology Review.
Evidence Linking Russia To The Downing Of The Malaysia Airliner - Business Insider
__________________
The_Pac_Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 10:08 PM   #105
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 151,035
Local Time: 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
It's not that I'm feeling any sort of goodwill towards the Russian government or the rebels, and even if it did seem like it before I can tell you it's not reflective of my views. What it all comes down to for me is, I seriously doubt that Russia would do this given its current pariah status in the negative sphere (and to a high degree, rightly so), and for them to shoot down a civilian aircraft would be akin to suicide. It makes no sense from their point of view to do something like this, and I don't think Putin (despite being an objectionable human being politically), is idiotic enough to order this sort of catastrophe. And if they had tried to frame Ukraine by it, nobody from the West would take them seriously and understandably so!

Honestly, even despite my entertaining of a possibility that the Ukrainian government had a deliberate involvement in the downing of the plane, it's more likely that it had been an accident by the Ukrainian army. I don't believe that the Ukrainian government, nor Russia, nor the rebels are all sadistic enough to do this deliberately. With that said, I wish a proper ceasefire would have been established following the disaster, but the Ukrainian army started shelling the city of Lugansk not long after where approximately 40 or so civilians were killed.

The worst part is all of this could've easily been avoided.
I didn't mean to suggest that I think Putin/Russia did it, nor do I think have any of the more sober and reputable media outlets (excluding the occasional opinion piece). I think the only reasonable conclusion is that the pro-Russia rebels accidentally shot it down in the belief it was a Ukrainian military plane. Whether Russia itself had any knowledge or contribution, directly or indirectly, I do not feel I can speculate; I wouldn't be shocked if behind the scenes they're furious with the rebels. If it was accidentally downed by the Ukrainian army, as you suggest, the rebels' behaviour - firing warning shots, limiting the time of investigators on the site in the crucial first couple of days afterwards - makes no sense at all. If the Ukrainians were at fault, this would be a publicity goldmine for the rebels. They would be welcoming in every observer they possibly could to ensure the world knew it was a Ukrainian-launched missile, and to further their narrative against Kiev.

My other thoughts are captured well by anitram and Popmartijn's posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sad Punk View Post
Why are so many media personalities still saying "the" Ukraine? Are they also reporting on war in Zaire?
Habit? I know better, but "the Ukraine" slips out more often than not in conversation anyway.
__________________

__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com