Another Malaysian Airline Disaster?

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and Ukranien jets were escorting that flight earlier for a while and didnt go near Russian border

Why would there be a need for fighter jets to escort the plane if the Ukrainians knew that the BUK system at the rebels' disposal wasn't operational, though? That the fighter jets were escorting the plane contradicts the events the air traffic controller had witnessed, and interestingly his Twitter account has been closed/deleted since his tweets.
 
every country does that sometimes, even for practice for pilots to identify planes and so on, might just been like that, dont know

seems they got confirmation now that it was shot down with missiles
 
In reference to that video you posted on the last page, the title says that fighters are driving the BUK system from across the Russian border but it's in the town of Krasnoarmeysk, which is far from the border and has been under Ukrainian control for a while now. There's a lot of deliberate misinformation from the Ukrainian side, such as the internet allows.
 
I reckon there's a lot of misinformation from both sides, and we really have no way to figure out what is true and what is not...
 
Agreed. That's the biggest problem, pretty much the only thing I can trust is eyewitness videos of events happening, I try to avoid both sides of mainstream media (both Western and Russian). The problem with that 'border' video is that it could be filmed anywhere and passed off as such, there's nothing to prove that it's at an actual border, and I don't think they'd have advertisement billboards so close to a border either.
 
Why would either the Russian or Ukrainian military do this? It is such a clearly awful idea with absolutely no benefits that could flow from it.

It makes a lot more sense that it was a rebel group, who got the weapon somehow (stole from the Russians, was given it by the Russians, whatever). Rebel groups are not trained, professional and disciplined armies and just relying on your common sense should tell you that this is the most likely cause. A group of rebels who thought they were aiming at something else (Ukrainian cargo flights, etc), don't have military radar, not plugged into air traffic, etc.

The important question is, if these groups have these sorts of weapons and clearly lack the brains required to hold off on operating them, what then? We all know that the Israelis blew up the same Syrian weaponry very recently precisely because they didn't want aircraft in their air space to be sitting ducks. Can't say I blame them.
 
There are quite a lot of reasons.... with a BUK system you cannot see what kind of plane you are shooting at, it's just a blimp on the radar. Ukrainian troups could've shot at what they thought was Putin's plane, which was in the same airspace a little earlier. The Russians could've done it to blame Ukraine somehow so they can justify starting a war, like what happened with Finland in the 1930s... I'm not saying any of these possibilities is realistic, but they are possible. Of course the rebel groups is the most likely option, I'm just not excluding the other options right now since I just don't know.
 
Do you really believe that either of those governments/militaries are so stupid as to try to shoot down Putin or otherwise start a war? I just think that it makes absolutely no sense at all.
 
But would rebels have access to weaponry that can knock a plane out of the air at 32,000 feet? I understand that they have suppliers giving them weaponry, but that kind of weaponry?
 
Notice that Putin didn't explicitly say Ukraine shot it down. Putin didn't even deny that rebels were behind the shooting. Instead, Putin blamed Kiev for "the tensions" in the area. The fact that even Vlad has not denied that pro-Russians are involved is pretty much a smoking gun in my book.
 
I sincerely doubt that starting a full on war is something Russia really want to do, it would be a suicide mission for them, even if they could feel that they could justify it. They know it wouldn't end well for them, they don't want to risk it and above all I think their preference is for the UA government and the rebels to establish an indefinite ceasefire, so contrary to what many are lead to believe I don't think Russia is particularly eager to start something so big.

Of course, the UA government could have avoided this conflict if they had granted the Donetsk/Lugansk regions some degree of autonomy several months ago. With that said, UA's concerns about the south east go further than just getting rid of the rebels, as a very large portion of the population are opposed to the current government, and even more so with having their cities mercilessly shelled by the army.
 
Do you really believe that either of those governments/militaries are so stupid as to try to shoot down Putin or otherwise start a war? I just think that it makes absolutely no sense at all.

The only way I can see this being a possibility is if the UA government wanted to stage something elaborately senseless, knowing they will have the full backing of the West, and try to make it appear that Russia was the culprit. But that's not even worth being discussed.

But would rebels have access to weaponry that can knock a plane out of the air at 32,000 feet? I understand that they have suppliers giving them weaponry, but that kind of weaponry?

I doubt it. Their best luck is to try and steal it from the Ukrainian army, the Ukrainians have already stated earlier that if they leave anything behind that it's going to be damaged and unusable.

Notice that Putin didn't explicitly say Ukraine shot it down. Putin didn't even deny that rebels were behind the shooting. Instead, Putin blamed Kiev for "the tensions" in the area. The fact that even Vlad has not denied that pro-Russians are involved is pretty much a smoking gun in my book.

Even me? :lol: I don't think I've ever stated that I'm a supporter of the Russians and/or the rebels, if that's what you're getting at.
 
I doubt it. Their best luck is to try and steal it from the Ukrainian army, the Ukrainians have already stated earlier that if they leave anything behind that it's going to be damaged and unusable.

What are the odds the Russian army provided them, in an under-the-table sort of way?

It should be fairly easy to figure out where the missile originated from. The US experts were saying yesterday that they were able to confirm a missile was fired because of a heat map, so it follows that the heat map would reveal the origin of firing as well.
 
That's like saying "plane flies through bad weather after plane crashes due to pilot error during bad weather."

Not a recipe for disaster.
 
Official American position:

President Obama said Friday that a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying nearly 300 people, including at least one U.S. citizen, was evidently shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.

In a White House news conference a day after the Boeing 777 crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Obama stopped short of saying who fired the missile or directly blaming Russia for the deaths, which he called “an outrage of unspeakable proportions.”

But he said the separatists “have received a steady flow of support from Russia,” including heavy arms, training and antiaircraft weapons. Pointing to rebel claims to have shot down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks, including a Ukrainian fighter jet, Obama said it was “not possible for these separatists to function the way they’re functioning . . . without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.”
 
A tragedy, pretty flabbergasting to wake up to.



It's not something the US isn't guilty of either, is it?



From what I understood the UA government had declared it a no-fly zone, I don't remember it being reversed lately.



Where to start with this? :lol:

I do love it when many people just go the casual "Blame Russia!" route, and not taking into account the actions of the Ukrainian government which seems to get a free pass among many Westerners. And the whole "Putin wants the USSR back" is just lazy.

I think P--sy Riot and any other Russians who get silenced would agree that a hint of the USSR can be seen, even if obviously not full blown (as it would clearly not fly with people who lived through it). Or their new ban on swearing coming after their ban on positive speech towards homosexuality. I just don't like that a country that has produced some of the world's greatest art and architecture still have all these restrictions for fear it might go against the Church/Government wishes. Its still much better from the days in the USSR when people had to get Beatles albums on the black market in defiance.

As for what happened there really needs to be some sort of strict international standard going forward to not fly over conflict zones no matter how high up in the sky a plane is.
 
What are the odds the Russian army provided them, in an under-the-table sort of way?

It should be fairly easy to figure out where the missile originated from. The US experts were saying yesterday that they were able to confirm a missile was fired because of a heat map, so it follows that the heat map would reveal the origin of firing as well.

Maybe, definitely possible, but I'm not even sure if the rebels have a border with Russia at this time. I've read recent accounts of people fleeing to Russia as refugees and some of them have said there had been a UA army presence at some border checkpoints. With such a large missile system it would be much riskier than say, a truck carrying firearms or whatever, the UA army would have ways of finding out if a missiles system like BUK was crossing the border I'd think.

So, apparently Malaysia Airlines is flying MH17 along the same route today.

I don't think that's a wise idea.

I think P--sy Riot and any other Russians who get silenced would agree that a hint of the USSR can be seen, even if obviously not full blown (as it would clearly not fly with people who lived through it). Or their new ban on swearing coming after their ban on positive speech towards homosexuality. I just don't like that a country that has produced some of the world's greatest art and architecture still have all these restrictions for fear it might go against the Church/Government wishes. Its still much better from the days in the USSR when people had to get Beatles albums on the black market in defiance.

As for what happened there really needs to be some sort of strict international standard going forward to not fly over conflict zones no matter how high up in the sky a plane is.

I don't think there's really much worth in debating in how authoritarian 'this' compared to 'that' is, my main point is not in disagreeing with you about the power of the Russian government, but more so to suggest that the Ukrainian government isn't a walk in the park either which is something you won't hear too much about in the mainstream media. Overall, Eastern Europe is conservative on a social level, and I don't think singling out Russia is particularly fair.

Anyway ...
 
The more I think about it and the more I read, it appears that the whole narrative used from the outset has been even a little too convenient, too obvious?

Was Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior behind the Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17? | Global Research

The differences in what various UA officials have said come off as being a bit suspicious, and that there are parts of the Ukrainian government that hide things from each other (which seems plausible given how the government was put together post Maidan).

My head hurts.
 
Terrible. Just terrible and extremely unfortunate. To see the bodies spread around all those gardens and properties. For some reason, I don't see these incidents diminishing. I just see diplomatic ties severing. And not just between two countries, many more.
 
I thought this was a good read: The Infowar Rages in Moscow

And Vlad, stop peddling the incoherent conspiracy theory that Ukraine shot down the plane. Besides the fact that Ukraine has no motive to do so, the rebels' post-crash behaviour is more than sufficiently incriminating. Nobody complicit in downing a plane would be making access to the crash site so difficult for investigators.
 
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