Angel Caught On Tape?

[Pearl]

A 14-year-old girl with a history of serious health issues lay dying of pneumonia in a hospital room. But as her mother waited for the girl to take her last breath, an image of bright light appeared on a security monitor. Within an hour, the dying girl began a recovery that doctors are at a loss to explain.

But Colleen Banton, the girl's mother, has an explanation. “This was an image of an angel,” she told NBC News in a story reported Tuesday on TODAY. She credited the apparition with saving the life of her daughter Chelsea.

Did an angel save dying girl in hospital? - TODAY: People - TODAYshow.com

Maybe some of you heard about this, since I caught this story on CNN.

Looks like something to me. How about you?

 

[WCF]

Hate to be a party pooper, but it looks like a normal glare to me...

 

[A_Wanderer]

It does look like something, it looks like an amorphous and possibly human form, and as pattern seeking animals we are very capable of turning them into intentional actors. From Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich to finding faces in the clouds the human brains capacity for pareidolia finds actors where none exist. Now this trait is important, if an individual was unable to spot intentional actors (such as predators) automatically they would be at risk of death; its better to have a hyperactive alarm system than an ineffective one, in the wild the cost can be death.

Given that the image is a picture of a CCTV monitor, that it is a bright patch, and it is superimposed over the television pixels then a reflected light source is a reasonable explanation. Now if this is a camera flash, light bulb, fluorescent light, or cynical photoshop job would take a photographic expert to determine. I know that my brain raises false alarms from time to time, that I can make out faces and bodies from random bits of visual input and that there is a biological mechanism and evolutionary explanation behind this pattern seeking capacity. I feel those facts are good enough to say that in this case an angel is an unlikely cause.

The belief in angels in modern societies seems to be a uniquely American attitude, the article that you posted goes on to elaborate how 75% of Americans believe in angels. The belief gets normalised, because as we all know if the majority of people believe something then it has to be true. Its reinforcing false beliefs, its fixing them into a population, to borrow a phrase from Richard Dawkins, it is perpetuating a delusion. Angels are fantastical inventions from the infancy of our species, as actual beings they are inconsistent with what is known about the origin of humanity and the laws of physics.

I can understand the urge to want to believe in the magical, and ignoring reality and supposing that angels definitely did exist it raises some bitter thoughts. These entities are willing to intervene to save a poor childs life, thats great, ignore the terrific amount of work that it has taken to forge modern medicine, or the inherent complexity of the human body it was the angel that stepped in and saved her; but what of the parents who aren't so favoured? What about the ones who don't get lucky, is life and death to be the arbitrary choice of capricious supermen? If you loose a child is it your fault for not worshipping enough, or not worshipping the right God? Is it the childs fault for similar reasons?

Saying that God, in his infinite power, sends angels to save some lives but not others is saying that God is choosing to let people suffer; and that would create a vile deity, you could give me unequivocal proof of that Gods existence and I wouldn't worship it. A non-interventionist God would be preferable to one who inflicts selective prayer-answering.

I just want to point out that the leaping on board for supernatural explanations for physical phenomena, by people who ought to know better, is what undercuts the non-overlapping magisteria argument about the role of religion and science. An interventionist God who sends out angels to heal the sick is an empirical question, one which - as absurd as it sounds - can be accepted or rejected on the basis of evidence. Large scale studies into the efficacy of prayer (conducted with double blind methodology on thousands of patients) show that intercessory prayer does not effect the recovery times of heart disease patients, and furthermore that patients who are told they are being prayed for have more post-surgical complications. Now this is important, if there is no supernatural agency in life and death then we cannot appeal to God/Gods when somebody close to us dies; we can't blame peoples physical illnesses on sin (as some Christians seem to); and the torturous questions of Gods will and fairness that loved ones ask are shown to be non sequiturs.

Of all the goodness in the world, from the doctors and nurses who treated this girl, to the scientific researchers who have put effort into understanding the natural world in order to save lives, people seem willing to throw it away for a supposedly spiritual explanation. That type of humanitarian goodwill shouldn't be squandered or ignored, it is more valuable to human lives and more conducive to human happiness than all the prayers in the world, or any misplaced belief in magical people who come down and pick out who to save and who to let die.

 

[diamond]

Richard Dawkins..*yawn*

 

[diamond]

For the record, I believe there are good angels and bad angels among us here on earth.

Here's an interesting story:

Doras Marlatt's Angel Encounter

"It was a bright summer day that Fourth of July. We weren't planning anything special since I had to work later and my husband John was recuperating from neck surgery. The following day was John's birthday and we planned to do something that weekend.

"But when he awoke, the pain was severe and he had difficulty breathing. I called 911. The last thing we suspected was that he had a heart condition. The doctors suggested immediate bypass surgery.

"But before they could operate, we faced another crisis. The balloon pump that the doctor put into the artery in my husband's leg had cut off the circulation. A vascular surgeon was called but I could see he was upset that he hadn't been called sooner. If circulation wasn't restored soon, John would lose his leg. It was too much!

"God," I said, "this time I will not ask you to save my husband's life. He's been through so much in the past thirty years." But I also asked God for peace of mind, knowing that if he did choose to take John home to heaven, I wanted to know that John was with him. You see, in all our years together, I didn't know how John felt about God.

"I prayed: "God, give him to me whole or take his soul."

"I closed my eyes and leaned back against the wall in the waiting room. There was a man standing in front of me. I kept telling myself I was not asleep. I wanted to open my eyes but I was afraid of losing the vision. The man walked across the room and I recognized him.

"Jesus," I cried out - at least I think I did - for I was speaking with my mind. He bowed to acknowledge my presence. Then he walked to John's bedside, reached down and touched his chest with both hands. Then he touched both his legs, from the hips to the knees. All the while I kept saying, "This is real, I can't be dreaming. I know I'm not asleep."

"Suddenly, Jesus and John were standing in front of me. Jesus had his arm around John's shoulder. They both looked straight into my eyes.

"Ann, you never have to worry," said Jesus. "John is mine now and always will be."

"Then John spoke to me. "Ann, for the first time in twenty years I'm free of pain."

"I was in such a state of amazement I could barely believe this was happening. Again I looked into the eyes of Jesus and with all the burning desire of a thousand questions, I said, "Jesus, I didn't know you were so tall."

"He smiled. And at that moment I was compelled to open my eyes to make sure I was awake. It wasn't a dream. Jesus was with my husband. He's not the small, slight man he's always pictured as being.

"Fearful of finding John slipping away to heaven, I walked slowly to his room. He lay still. My heart stopped beating. Then he turned to me and said, "I must have fallen asleep for a while." I stood there sputtering, wanting to tell him what I'd seen. But what he told me took the words right out of my mouth.

"A man came to see me just now," John told me. "He said I wouldn't need surgery today, and maybe I'd never need it. He touched my chest and my legs with his hands. He reassured me that everything would be okay."

"Jesus was with you," I shouted at him. "I saw the whole thing from the other room."

"I didn't say it was Jesus," John protested.

"Whether it was or wasn't doesn't really matter. John kept his leg, his heart healed and he's alive two years after that amazing hospital visitation.

"The fact that John still suffers from pain does not take away from the blessed visit that we experienced that day in July."


"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." - Hebrews 13:2 of the Bible

 

[A_Wanderer]

He denies it and still suffers from pain, you have no credible evidence.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Richard Dawkins..*yawn*

I know, if only I just stole sayings and posts from other people without citation, that would really show them how smart I am.

 

[diamond]

regardless-Merry Christmas.



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[diamond]

He denies it and still suffers from pain, you have no credible evidence.

What did he deny?

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[A_Wanderer]

He denied that it was Jesus; coupled with the fact that he still experiences pain and the visitation as he supposedly relates it sounds like a medical professional and doesn't seem like anything supernatural.

If the Christian lord was interested in saving lives and setting people on the right path why doesn't he visit more dying Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists and show them the truth? Why is it that these incredible things only seem to happen to white and protestant mid-westerners in the United States?

Flaunting your credulity is a terrific way to be exploited by cynical faith leaders. People buy homeopathic remedies by the bucketload, healing crystals have followers and plenty will avoid going to real doctors if they get a stab of endorphins from a faith "healer".

Many people seem to have faith in supernatural agency without believing every claim hook, line and sinker. The lack of common sense that gets displayed with these stories is really worrying, if the bulk of society isn't able to think critically the few cynics will exploit it to the hilt. I must emphasise, your willingness to believe doesn't make you a moron; but stubbornly embracing that belief because it gets criticised is not a good way to go - the tools of critical thinking are out there, you get to examine peoples claims, weigh evidence against interest, justify your own positions, examine your own positions and think for yourself.

 

[diamond]

He denied that it was Jesus; coupled with the fact that he still experiences pain and the visitation as he supposedly relates it sounds like a medical professional and doesn't seem like anything supernatural.

If the Christian lord was interested in saving lives and setting people on the right path why doesn't he visit more dying Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists and show them the truth? Why is it that these incredible things only seem to happen to white and protestant mid-westerners in the United States?

Flaunting your credulity is a terrific way to be exploited by cynical faith leaders. People buy homeopathic remedies by the bucketload, healing crystals have followers and plenty will avoid going to real doctors if they get a stab of endorphins from a faith "healer".

Many people seem to have faith in supernatural agency without believing every claim hook, line and sinker. The lack of common sense that gets displayed with these stories is really worrying, if the bulk of society isn't able to think critically the few cynics will exploit it to the hilt. I must emphasise, your willingness to believe doesn't make you a moron; but stubbornly embracing that belief because it gets criticised is not a good way to go - the tools of critical thinking are out there, you get to examine peoples claims, weigh evidence against interest, justify your own positions, examine your own positions and think for yourself.

In substance the husband and wife agreed on what happened.
The only disagreed on who the personality was, Jesus or an Angel.

The both witnessed the same thing. People of all Faiths have had similar experiences-even Amostics/Athiests.
Nobody is flaunting anything, only relating experiences that happened to them.

Altho she wife prayed that the husband be made whole it wasn't God's Will that he was made completely whole, however the husband's spiritual body was whole and he told her this :while standing next to the Christ/Angel figure. Once his spiritual body re-entered his mortal body, later he discovered he still has occassional aches and pains.

Why God allows this could be for a number of reasons, but the more important aspects are that the woman and husband did both see something miraculous simultaneously, while in different rooms and because of it his scheduled surgeries were no longer needed.

Those facts are indisputable, throwing in homepathic or digressive tangents have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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[U2Fanatic4ever]

i don't buy it...

 

[clarityat3am]

That's some really bright sunlight/glare.

 

[diamond]

And before Saul became Paul he was a mad man.

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[U2DMfan]

I think in the future ILM will be able to provide us all with our own guardian angels.
Maybe they will even be able to speak and hang around for a proper picture or video camera instead of magically 'disappearing' when more observers show up.

May the Force Be With You.

 

[sue4u2]

I have lost a son, my Father and my brother. I have seen and still experience some miraculous feelings, visions and dreams. These things cannot be explained either, but I don't need them too. I never thought I was more deserving of an angel or divine intervention in regards to my love one's illnesses, but it has happened at times. With that said, it didn't make me want to invite people to believe in a miracle, or believe in what I believe or had seen, not that I could define it anyway. It was personal to me.
I remember years ago, two women came to "annoint" my son, and I agreed out of respect to my friends - Mother's request. I remember them being so disappointed because they didn't "heal" him that they stated there was not enough belief around him to make it happen. I knew at that time they had fallen prey to some ridiculous religious belief they could become healers through some TV or other bogus religious teaching.

I saw this article about the angel and my thoughts are, if that's what they need to get them through..then so be it..it happened. It's not for me to judge.

 

[BonosSaint]

Over the holiday, my 16 year old niece's friend was killed in a car accident. She had been invited to go with the friend for lunch (the trip in which he was killed), but had other plans. My mother, who believes in angels, said my niece's angel must have been looking out for her. I was so grateful my niece hadn't been in that car, but had to ask "Who was looking out then for the boy who was killed?" That is the question no one can answer. Did she have a better angel? Was his angel on break?

I wouldn't criticize someone celebrating their good fortune by thanking whatever (although I'd probably send a fruit basket or a box of expensive chocolates to the medical staff). I can't criticize anyone for crying out to whatever to ease their pain or to make things right. But as Wanderer noted, I can either accept the capriciousness of god and angel which is not much comfort since so many would seem to be abandoned then, or I can believe in good people and bad people and randomness.

 

[diamond]

Over the holiday, my 16 year old niece's friend was killed in a car accident. She had been invited to go with the friend for lunch (the trip in which he was killed), but had other plans. My mother, who believes in angels, said my niece's angel must have been looking out for her. I was so grateful my niece hadn't been in that car, but had to ask "Who was looking out then for the boy who was killed?" That is the question no one can answer. Did she have a better angel?

I wouldn't criticize someone celebrating their good fortune by thanking whatever (although I'd probably send a fruit basket or a box of expensive chocolates to the medical staff). I can't criticize anyone for crying out to whatever to ease their pain or to make things right. But as Wanderer noted, I can either accept the capriciousness of god and angel which is not much comfort since so many would seem to be abandoned then, or I can believe in good people and bad people and randomness.

Was his angel on break?

No, his Angel was in Heaven and *could* have been waiting for him to welcome him home once he returned there. I've read we all have 2-3 Guardian Angels. From my research and by accounts made by near death survivors (who died and went to Heaven or Hell or both) they've been told that: many souls on earth have pre arranged times when they will return home to Heaven, some by accident, some by disease or whatever. We may be even burdened with a handicap to teach us humility and patience or allow others to learn those traits thru us. It seems cruel to us at first glance but it's not because we understand there (in heaven where our souls came from) how eternal our souls are, and that our mortal bodies are a suit of clothes assigned to us for a few brief moments here on earth.

Maybe your neice was prompted by her guardian angel *not* to attend the trip with him because her time wasn't up and her body was to remain whole during her earth life here.

I dunno, but I've heard about scenarios like this.

I appreciate sue4u2's experiences too. I've met and conversed with many people, some highly educated, some not that have had wonderful personal manifastations and visitations from Angels and/or of Christ and even other glorious encounters and dreams. They are not to be laughed at or scoffed at.

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[BonosSaint]

It is not important to me one way or another whether someone believes in angels. I don't laugh or scoff. People find their truths where they find them. But if you want to convince me of a fair god (if one exists), then you need to give me something better than guesswork to the whys or why nots. And even if it makes sense to you or even if a million religious leaders think so, it is still guesswork.

I'm much more interested in the whys and why nots than in the manifestations. The specific whys, the specific why nots and that's the answer you cannot give me.

I once was a person of faith. I once believed those things. Now I look for the concrete.

That being said, I have no problem with someone believing in an angel. We take our comforts where we can. As long as we don't think it lets us off the hook.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

"Who was looking out then for the boy who was killed?" That is the question no one can answer. Did she have a better angel? Was his angel on break?

Exactly, that is the question.

I do believe in angels in some ways, years back I went through a big phase when I read tons of books about them. I actually had a vision of one once, whether it was all conjured up in my imagination or whatever it was, it was still nice. People find comfort in many things and in many ways, that's for them to decide. I don't feel the need to judge it.

 

[mobvok]

It's funny that as our scientific knowledge and ability to document has increased, the scale of "miraculous events" has become increasingly minor. Back in the good old days they made miracles legit- Moses parting the Red Sea! You saw that, you knew it was the freaking Hand of God. But now they're so.......ordinary. Area man makes an unlikely recovery! News at 11.

 

[~BrightestStar~]

I caught angels on tape once...

 

[No spoken words]

Me too Brighty.

 

[A_Wanderer]

No, his Angel was in Heaven and *could* have been waiting for him to welcome him home once he returned there. I've read we all have 2-3 Guardian Angels. From my research and by accounts made by near death survivors (who died and went to Heaven or Hell or both) they've been told that: many souls on earth have pre arranged times when they will return home to Heaven, some by accident, some by disease or whatever. We may be even burdened with a handicap to teach us humility and patience or allow others to learn those traits thru us. It seems cruel to us at first glance but it's not because we understand there (in heaven where our souls came from) how eternal our souls are, and that our mortal bodies are a suit of clothes assigned to us for a few brief moments here on earth.

Maybe your neice was prompted by her guardian angel *not* to attend the trip with him because her time wasn't up and her body was to remain whole during her earth life here.

I dunno, but I've heard about scenarios like this.

I appreciate sue4u2's experiences too. I've met and conversed with many people, some highly educated, some not that have had wonderful personal manifastations and visitations from Angels and/or of Christ and even other glorious encounters and dreams. They are not to be laughed at or scoffed at.

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People may have real experiences, but that doesn't lend any credibility to claims of the supernatural. Your assertion that near death experiences take peoples souls to an actual heaven or hell is utterly unjustified, the form of the afterlife is a culturally created artifact - one which people may have a vivid experience of as the brain shuts down - be it Valhalla, Elysium, Mictlan, 72 chaste Islamic virgins or the Christian concept of heaven.

Alien abductions are matched by frequent and detailed descriptions by people who are entirely faithful about what they experienced. People see ghosts all the time, people can be made to see ghosts by controlling their environment. Schizophrenia, seizures and drugs can induce visions of beings with agency. Religious and spiritual feelings are not restricted to any single religion; the similarities between the spiritual experience and other documented examples of the human brain generating the fantastical in its world model makes critical examination of angel reports an important first position.

I don't deny that people have spiritual experiences, they are real experiences, and they can have a big impact on their lives. But given what we know about our own origins (did angels evolve from a common ancestor?) and the human brain they must be viewed through a naturalistic lens. Believing in angels without robust evidence (and anecdote doesn't count) isn't justifiable, they either exist (which would be a tremendous discovery) or they don't exist, what matters is what we can confidently say is real, and has an impact in the world. Believing in angels doesn't make you a bad person or an idiot, but it can leave you open to exploitation; the sceptic isn't trying to get anything out of you - unlike the book publisher or church.

You are selectively picking reports of experiences, which are published by evangelical organisations, and drawing ethnocentric conclusions about an afterlife. Its in the interest of your church to perpetuate falsehoods about Angels, if they keep people believing that there are angels out there and that there is a mountain of evidence for them then you are far less likely to question the claims of your faith (and naturally will continue to give your obligatory tithe).

 

[vaz02]

Looks like a glare. What do the clouds look like to you ?

 

[anitram]

No, his Angel was in Heaven and *could* have been waiting for him to welcome him home once he returned there.

...

It seems cruel to us at first glance but it's not because we understand there (in heaven where our souls came from) how eternal our souls are, and that our mortal bodies are a suit of clothes assigned to us for a few brief moments here on earth.

I knew a family once who lost a 6 year old boy to brain cancer. He first got it when he was almost 3, then relapsed at 5.

When a relative said to the father of the boy that it was meant to be and that God just wanted ___ home earlier, he got a punch right in the teeth. Nobody felt sorry for him.

 

[diamond]

ok..and?

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[diamond]

People may have real experiences, but that doesn't lend any credibility to claims of the supernatural. Your assertion that near death experiences take peoples souls to an actual heaven or hell is utterly unjustified...

I don't deny that people have spiritual experiences...

You are selectively picking reports of experiences....QUOTE]

Most Drs with a higher education than you disagree::

CHICAGO - A survey examining religion in medicine found that most U.S. doctors believe in God and an afterlife — a surprising degree of spirituality in a science-based field, researchers say.

In the survey of 1,044 doctors nationwide, 76 percent said they believe in God, 59 percent said they believe in some sort of afterlife, ...

“We were surprised to find that physicians were as religious as they apparently are,” said Dr. Farr Curlin, a researcher at the University of Chicago’s MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics.






“There’s certainly a deep-seated cultural idea that science and religion are at odds,” and previous studies have suggested that fewer than half of scientists believe in God, Curlin said Wednesday.


A previous survey showed about 83 percent of the general population believes in God.

But while medicine is science-based, doctors differ from scientists who work primarily in a laboratory setting, and their direct contact with patients in life-and-death situations may explain the differing views, Curlin said.

Important to end-of-life issues
The study is based on responses to questionnaires mailed in 2003. It is to appear in an upcoming issue of the Journal of General Internal Medicine and was released online to subscribers earlier this month.

Dr. J. Edward Hill, president of the American Medical Association, said religion and medicine are completely compatible, as long as doctors do not force their own beliefs on patients.

Belief in “a supreme being ... is vitally important to physicians’ ability to take care of patients, particularly the end-of-life issues that we deal with so often,” said Hill, a family physician from Tupelo, Miss.

Religions among physicians are more varied than among the general population, the survey found. While more than 80 percent of the U.S. population is Protestant or Catholic, 60 percent of doctors said they were from either group.

Compared with the general population, more doctors were Jewish — 14 percent vs. 2 percent; Hindu — 5 percent vs. less than 1 percent; and Muslim — almost 3 percent vs. less than 1 percent.

The trouble with you A_W is you always want material proof from non material world and dismiss what credible people have to say about what they've experienced.

So for the time being, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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[A_Wanderer]

I'm on track for a PhD, and will be getting articles published in scientific journals in 2009, give me a few more years and I can be a "quotable authority", but that doesn't validate any of my arguments; they are justifiable on the basis of the facts that I cited. You are making an appeal to authority, and it is very weak. Just because a majority of people believe that something is true does not make it true; just because the bulk of doctors believe in God and the afterlife doesn't make God or an afterlife true.

Peoples anecdotal evidence and experience is important, it is revealing, but what it means is the question; reflexively assuming that it validates the supernatural when other explanations fit without calling in the impossible is poor thinking. You can't say that these claims validate the existence of angels while claiming that they cannot be proven, boxing them off into a non-material world creates all sorts of problems about how they interact with people and various paradoxes which may arise due to their properties.

Medical doctors are slightly less religious than the general population, although the poll doesn't ask what type of God they believe in. 93% of the members of the national academy of sciences don't believe in a personal god. This doesn't come down to support anything other than cultural differences between pure sciences and medicine.

As far as Dr. Hill goes, this quote stands out

Belief in “a supreme being ... is vitally important to physicians’ ability to take care of patients, particularly the end-of-life issues that we deal with so often,”

Now in this context it sounds like he is saying that an atheist doctor would be unable to take care of patients in palliative care, and it comes across as bigoted.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The trouble with you A_W is you always want material proof from non material world and dismiss what credible people have to say about what they've experienced.

Every great advance in natural knowledge has involved the absolute rejection of authority. - Thomas H. Huxley