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Old 12-25-2008, 08:57 PM   #1
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Angel Caught On Tape?

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A 14-year-old girl with a history of serious health issues lay dying of pneumonia in a hospital room. But as her mother waited for the girl to take her last breath, an image of bright light appeared on a security monitor. Within an hour, the dying girl began a recovery that doctors are at a loss to explain.

But Colleen Banton, the girl's mother, has an explanation. “This was an image of an angel,” she told NBC News in a story reported Tuesday on TODAY. She credited the apparition with saving the life of her daughter Chelsea.
Did an angel save dying girl in hospital? - TODAY: People - TODAYshow.com

Maybe some of you heard about this, since I caught this story on CNN.

Looks like something to me. How about you?
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Old 12-25-2008, 09:30 PM   #2
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Hate to be a party pooper, but it looks like a normal glare to me...
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Old 12-25-2008, 10:03 PM   #3
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It does look like something, it looks like an amorphous and possibly human form, and as pattern seeking animals we are very capable of turning them into intentional actors. From Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich to finding faces in the clouds the human brains capacity for pareidolia finds actors where none exist. Now this trait is important, if an individual was unable to spot intentional actors (such as predators) automatically they would be at risk of death; its better to have a hyperactive alarm system than an ineffective one, in the wild the cost can be death.

Given that the image is a picture of a CCTV monitor, that it is a bright patch, and it is superimposed over the television pixels then a reflected light source is a reasonable explanation. Now if this is a camera flash, light bulb, fluorescent light, or cynical photoshop job would take a photographic expert to determine. I know that my brain raises false alarms from time to time, that I can make out faces and bodies from random bits of visual input and that there is a biological mechanism and evolutionary explanation behind this pattern seeking capacity. I feel those facts are good enough to say that in this case an angel is an unlikely cause.

The belief in angels in modern societies seems to be a uniquely American attitude, the article that you posted goes on to elaborate how 75% of Americans believe in angels. The belief gets normalised, because as we all know if the majority of people believe something then it has to be true. Its reinforcing false beliefs, its fixing them into a population, to borrow a phrase from Richard Dawkins, it is perpetuating a delusion. Angels are fantastical inventions from the infancy of our species, as actual beings they are inconsistent with what is known about the origin of humanity and the laws of physics.

I can understand the urge to want to believe in the magical, and ignoring reality and supposing that angels definitely did exist it raises some bitter thoughts. These entities are willing to intervene to save a poor childs life, thats great, ignore the terrific amount of work that it has taken to forge modern medicine, or the inherent complexity of the human body it was the angel that stepped in and saved her; but what of the parents who aren't so favoured? What about the ones who don't get lucky, is life and death to be the arbitrary choice of capricious supermen? If you loose a child is it your fault for not worshipping enough, or not worshipping the right God? Is it the childs fault for similar reasons?

Saying that God, in his infinite power, sends angels to save some lives but not others is saying that God is choosing to let people suffer; and that would create a vile deity, you could give me unequivocal proof of that Gods existence and I wouldn't worship it. A non-interventionist God would be preferable to one who inflicts selective prayer-answering.

I just want to point out that the leaping on board for supernatural explanations for physical phenomena, by people who ought to know better, is what undercuts the non-overlapping magisteria argument about the role of religion and science. An interventionist God who sends out angels to heal the sick is an empirical question, one which - as absurd as it sounds - can be accepted or rejected on the basis of evidence. Large scale studies into the efficacy of prayer (conducted with double blind methodology on thousands of patients) show that intercessory prayer does not effect the recovery times of heart disease patients, and furthermore that patients who are told they are being prayed for have more post-surgical complications. Now this is important, if there is no supernatural agency in life and death then we cannot appeal to God/Gods when somebody close to us dies; we can't blame peoples physical illnesses on sin (as some Christians seem to); and the torturous questions of Gods will and fairness that loved ones ask are shown to be non sequiturs.

Of all the goodness in the world, from the doctors and nurses who treated this girl, to the scientific researchers who have put effort into understanding the natural world in order to save lives, people seem willing to throw it away for a supposedly spiritual explanation. That type of humanitarian goodwill shouldn't be squandered or ignored, it is more valuable to human lives and more conducive to human happiness than all the prayers in the world, or any misplaced belief in magical people who come down and pick out who to save and who to let die.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:04 AM   #4
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Richard Dawkins..*yawn*
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:14 AM   #5
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For the record, I believe there are good angels and bad angels among us here on earth.

Here's an interesting story:

Quote:
Doras Marlatt's Angel Encounter

"It was a bright summer day that Fourth of July. We weren't planning anything special since I had to work later and my husband John was recuperating from neck surgery. The following day was John's birthday and we planned to do something that weekend.

"But when he awoke, the pain was severe and he had difficulty breathing. I called 911. The last thing we suspected was that he had a heart condition. The doctors suggested immediate bypass surgery.

"But before they could operate, we faced another crisis. The balloon pump that the doctor put into the artery in my husband's leg had cut off the circulation. A vascular surgeon was called but I could see he was upset that he hadn't been called sooner. If circulation wasn't restored soon, John would lose his leg. It was too much!

"God," I said, "this time I will not ask you to save my husband's life. He's been through so much in the past thirty years." But I also asked God for peace of mind, knowing that if he did choose to take John home to heaven, I wanted to know that John was with him. You see, in all our years together, I didn't know how John felt about God.

"I prayed: "God, give him to me whole or take his soul."

"I closed my eyes and leaned back against the wall in the waiting room. There was a man standing in front of me. I kept telling myself I was not asleep. I wanted to open my eyes but I was afraid of losing the vision. The man walked across the room and I recognized him.

"Jesus," I cried out - at least I think I did - for I was speaking with my mind. He bowed to acknowledge my presence. Then he walked to John's bedside, reached down and touched his chest with both hands. Then he touched both his legs, from the hips to the knees. All the while I kept saying, "This is real, I can't be dreaming. I know I'm not asleep."

"Suddenly, Jesus and John were standing in front of me. Jesus had his arm around John's shoulder. They both looked straight into my eyes.

"Ann, you never have to worry," said Jesus. "John is mine now and always will be."

"Then John spoke to me. "Ann, for the first time in twenty years I'm free of pain."

"I was in such a state of amazement I could barely believe this was happening. Again I looked into the eyes of Jesus and with all the burning desire of a thousand questions, I said, "Jesus, I didn't know you were so tall."

"He smiled. And at that moment I was compelled to open my eyes to make sure I was awake. It wasn't a dream. Jesus was with my husband. He's not the small, slight man he's always pictured as being.

"Fearful of finding John slipping away to heaven, I walked slowly to his room. He lay still. My heart stopped beating. Then he turned to me and said, "I must have fallen asleep for a while." I stood there sputtering, wanting to tell him what I'd seen. But what he told me took the words right out of my mouth.

"A man came to see me just now," John told me. "He said I wouldn't need surgery today, and maybe I'd never need it. He touched my chest and my legs with his hands. He reassured me that everything would be okay."

"Jesus was with you," I shouted at him. "I saw the whole thing from the other room."

"I didn't say it was Jesus," John protested.

"Whether it was or wasn't doesn't really matter. John kept his leg, his heart healed and he's alive two years after that amazing hospital visitation.

"The fact that John still suffers from pain does not take away from the blessed visit that we experienced that day in July."


"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." - Hebrews 13:2 of the Bible
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:25 AM   #6
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He denies it and still suffers from pain, you have no credible evidence.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:26 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Richard Dawkins..*yawn*
I know, if only I just stole sayings and posts from other people without citation, that would really show them how smart I am.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:33 AM   #8
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regardless-Merry Christmas.



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Old 12-26-2008, 12:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
He denies it and still suffers from pain, you have no credible evidence.

What did he deny?

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Old 12-26-2008, 01:37 AM   #10
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He denied that it was Jesus; coupled with the fact that he still experiences pain and the visitation as he supposedly relates it sounds like a medical professional and doesn't seem like anything supernatural.

If the Christian lord was interested in saving lives and setting people on the right path why doesn't he visit more dying Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists and show them the truth? Why is it that these incredible things only seem to happen to white and protestant mid-westerners in the United States?

Flaunting your credulity is a terrific way to be exploited by cynical faith leaders. People buy homeopathic remedies by the bucketload, healing crystals have followers and plenty will avoid going to real doctors if they get a stab of endorphins from a faith "healer".

Many people seem to have faith in supernatural agency without believing every claim hook, line and sinker. The lack of common sense that gets displayed with these stories is really worrying, if the bulk of society isn't able to think critically the few cynics will exploit it to the hilt. I must emphasise, your willingness to believe doesn't make you a moron; but stubbornly embracing that belief because it gets criticised is not a good way to go - the tools of critical thinking are out there, you get to examine peoples claims, weigh evidence against interest, justify your own positions, examine your own positions and think for yourself.
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
He denied that it was Jesus; coupled with the fact that he still experiences pain and the visitation as he supposedly relates it sounds like a medical professional and doesn't seem like anything supernatural.

If the Christian lord was interested in saving lives and setting people on the right path why doesn't he visit more dying Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists and show them the truth? Why is it that these incredible things only seem to happen to white and protestant mid-westerners in the United States?

Flaunting your credulity is a terrific way to be exploited by cynical faith leaders. People buy homeopathic remedies by the bucketload, healing crystals have followers and plenty will avoid going to real doctors if they get a stab of endorphins from a faith "healer".

Many people seem to have faith in supernatural agency without believing every claim hook, line and sinker. The lack of common sense that gets displayed with these stories is really worrying, if the bulk of society isn't able to think critically the few cynics will exploit it to the hilt. I must emphasise, your willingness to believe doesn't make you a moron; but stubbornly embracing that belief because it gets criticised is not a good way to go - the tools of critical thinking are out there, you get to examine peoples claims, weigh evidence against interest, justify your own positions, examine your own positions and think for yourself.
In substance the husband and wife agreed on what happened.
The only disagreed on who the personality was, Jesus or an Angel.

The both witnessed the same thing. People of all Faiths have had similar experiences-even Amostics/Athiests.
Nobody is flaunting anything, only relating experiences that happened to them.

Altho she wife prayed that the husband be made whole it wasn't God's Will that he was made completely whole, however the husband's spiritual body was whole and he told her this :while standing next to the Christ/Angel figure. Once his spiritual body re-entered his mortal body, later he discovered he still has occassional aches and pains.

Why God allows this could be for a number of reasons, but the more important aspects are that the woman and husband did both see something miraculous simultaneously, while in different rooms and because of it his scheduled surgeries were no longer needed.

Those facts are indisputable, throwing in homepathic or digressive tangents have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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Old 12-26-2008, 09:34 AM   #12
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i don't buy it...
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:31 AM   #13
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That's some really bright sunlight/glare.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:00 PM   #14
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And before Saul became Paul he was a mad man.

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Old 12-26-2008, 11:50 PM   #15
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I think in the future ILM will be able to provide us all with our own guardian angels.
Maybe they will even be able to speak and hang around for a proper picture or video camera instead of magically 'disappearing' when more observers show up.

May the Force Be With You.
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