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Old 12-27-2008, 01:22 AM   #16
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I have lost a son, my Father and my brother. I have seen and still experience some miraculous feelings, visions and dreams. These things cannot be explained either, but I don't need them too. I never thought I was more deserving of an angel or divine intervention in regards to my love one's illnesses, but it has happened at times. With that said, it didn't make me want to invite people to believe in a miracle, or believe in what I believe or had seen, not that I could define it anyway. It was personal to me.
I remember years ago, two women came to "annoint" my son, and I agreed out of respect to my friends - Mother's request. I remember them being so disappointed because they didn't "heal" him that they stated there was not enough belief around him to make it happen. I knew at that time they had fallen prey to some ridiculous religious belief they could become healers through some TV or other bogus religious teaching.

I saw this article about the angel and my thoughts are, if that's what they need to get them through..then so be it..it happened. It's not for me to judge.
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Old 12-27-2008, 08:21 AM   #17
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Over the holiday, my 16 year old niece's friend was killed in a car accident. She had been invited to go with the friend for lunch (the trip in which he was killed), but had other plans. My mother, who believes in angels, said my niece's angel must have been looking out for her. I was so grateful my niece hadn't been in that car, but had to ask "Who was looking out then for the boy who was killed?" That is the question no one can answer. Did she have a better angel? Was his angel on break?

I wouldn't criticize someone celebrating their good fortune by thanking whatever (although I'd probably send a fruit basket or a box of expensive chocolates to the medical staff). I can't criticize anyone for crying out to whatever to ease their pain or to make things right. But as Wanderer noted, I can either accept the capriciousness of god and angel which is not much comfort since so many would seem to be abandoned then, or I can believe in good people and bad people and randomness.
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:12 PM   #18
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Over the holiday, my 16 year old niece's friend was killed in a car accident. She had been invited to go with the friend for lunch (the trip in which he was killed), but had other plans. My mother, who believes in angels, said my niece's angel must have been looking out for her. I was so grateful my niece hadn't been in that car, but had to ask "Who was looking out then for the boy who was killed?" That is the question no one can answer. Did she have a better angel?

I wouldn't criticize someone celebrating their good fortune by thanking whatever (although I'd probably send a fruit basket or a box of expensive chocolates to the medical staff). I can't criticize anyone for crying out to whatever to ease their pain or to make things right. But as Wanderer noted, I can either accept the capriciousness of god and angel which is not much comfort since so many would seem to be abandoned then, or I can believe in good people and bad people and randomness.
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Was his angel on break?
No, his Angel was in Heaven and *could* have been waiting for him to welcome him home once he returned there. I've read we all have 2-3 Guardian Angels. From my research and by accounts made by near death survivors (who died and went to Heaven or Hell or both) they've been told that: many souls on earth have pre arranged times when they will return home to Heaven, some by accident, some by disease or whatever. We may be even burdened with a handicap to teach us humility and patience or allow others to learn those traits thru us. It seems cruel to us at first glance but it's not because we understand there (in heaven where our souls came from) how eternal our souls are, and that our mortal bodies are a suit of clothes assigned to us for a few brief moments here on earth.

Maybe your neice was prompted by her guardian angel *not* to attend the trip with him because her time wasn't up and her body was to remain whole during her earth life here.

I dunno, but I've heard about scenarios like this.

I appreciate sue4u2's experiences too. I've met and conversed with many people, some highly educated, some not that have had wonderful personal manifastations and visitations from Angels and/or of Christ and even other glorious encounters and dreams. They are not to be laughed at or scoffed at.

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Old 12-27-2008, 01:08 PM   #19
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It is not important to me one way or another whether someone believes in angels. I don't laugh or scoff. People find their truths where they find them. But if you want to convince me of a fair god (if one exists), then you need to give me something better than guesswork to the whys or why nots. And even if it makes sense to you or even if a million religious leaders think so, it is still guesswork.

I'm much more interested in the whys and why nots than in the manifestations. The specific whys, the specific why nots and that's the answer you cannot give me.

I once was a person of faith. I once believed those things. Now I look for the concrete.

That being said, I have no problem with someone believing in an angel. We take our comforts where we can. As long as we don't think it lets us off the hook.
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:30 PM   #20
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"Who was looking out then for the boy who was killed?" That is the question no one can answer. Did she have a better angel? Was his angel on break?

Exactly, that is the question.

I do believe in angels in some ways, years back I went through a big phase when I read tons of books about them. I actually had a vision of one once, whether it was all conjured up in my imagination or whatever it was, it was still nice. People find comfort in many things and in many ways, that's for them to decide. I don't feel the need to judge it.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:12 PM   #21
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It's funny that as our scientific knowledge and ability to document has increased, the scale of "miraculous events" has become increasingly minor. Back in the good old days they made miracles legit- Moses parting the Red Sea! You saw that, you knew it was the freaking Hand of God. But now they're so.......ordinary. Area man makes an unlikely recovery! News at 11.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:20 PM   #22
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I caught angels on tape once...
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:13 PM   #23
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Me too Brighty.

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Old 12-27-2008, 06:49 PM   #24
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No, his Angel was in Heaven and *could* have been waiting for him to welcome him home once he returned there. I've read we all have 2-3 Guardian Angels. From my research and by accounts made by near death survivors (who died and went to Heaven or Hell or both) they've been told that: many souls on earth have pre arranged times when they will return home to Heaven, some by accident, some by disease or whatever. We may be even burdened with a handicap to teach us humility and patience or allow others to learn those traits thru us. It seems cruel to us at first glance but it's not because we understand there (in heaven where our souls came from) how eternal our souls are, and that our mortal bodies are a suit of clothes assigned to us for a few brief moments here on earth.

Maybe your neice was prompted by her guardian angel *not* to attend the trip with him because her time wasn't up and her body was to remain whole during her earth life here.

I dunno, but I've heard about scenarios like this.

I appreciate sue4u2's experiences too. I've met and conversed with many people, some highly educated, some not that have had wonderful personal manifastations and visitations from Angels and/or of Christ and even other glorious encounters and dreams. They are not to be laughed at or scoffed at.

<>
People may have real experiences, but that doesn't lend any credibility to claims of the supernatural. Your assertion that near death experiences take peoples souls to an actual heaven or hell is utterly unjustified, the form of the afterlife is a culturally created artifact - one which people may have a vivid experience of as the brain shuts down - be it Valhalla, Elysium, Mictlan, 72 chaste Islamic virgins or the Christian concept of heaven.

Alien abductions are matched by frequent and detailed descriptions by people who are entirely faithful about what they experienced. People see ghosts all the time, people can be made to see ghosts by controlling their environment. Schizophrenia, seizures and drugs can induce visions of beings with agency. Religious and spiritual feelings are not restricted to any single religion; the similarities between the spiritual experience and other documented examples of the human brain generating the fantastical in its world model makes critical examination of angel reports an important first position.

I don't deny that people have spiritual experiences, they are real experiences, and they can have a big impact on their lives. But given what we know about our own origins (did angels evolve from a common ancestor?) and the human brain they must be viewed through a naturalistic lens. Believing in angels without robust evidence (and anecdote doesn't count) isn't justifiable, they either exist (which would be a tremendous discovery) or they don't exist, what matters is what we can confidently say is real, and has an impact in the world. Believing in angels doesn't make you a bad person or an idiot, but it can leave you open to exploitation; the sceptic isn't trying to get anything out of you - unlike the book publisher or church.

You are selectively picking reports of experiences, which are published by evangelical organisations, and drawing ethnocentric conclusions about an afterlife. Its in the interest of your church to perpetuate falsehoods about Angels, if they keep people believing that there are angels out there and that there is a mountain of evidence for them then you are far less likely to question the claims of your faith (and naturally will continue to give your obligatory tithe).
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:00 PM   #25
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Looks like a glare. What do the clouds look like to you ?
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:10 PM   #26
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No, his Angel was in Heaven and *could* have been waiting for him to welcome him home once he returned there.

...

It seems cruel to us at first glance but it's not because we understand there (in heaven where our souls came from) how eternal our souls are, and that our mortal bodies are a suit of clothes assigned to us for a few brief moments here on earth.
I knew a family once who lost a 6 year old boy to brain cancer. He first got it when he was almost 3, then relapsed at 5.

When a relative said to the father of the boy that it was meant to be and that God just wanted ___ home earlier, he got a punch right in the teeth. Nobody felt sorry for him.
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:13 PM   #27
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ok..and?

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Old 12-27-2008, 11:22 PM   #28
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[QUOTE=A_Wanderer;5697657]
Quote:
People may have real experiences, but that doesn't lend any credibility to claims of the supernatural. Your assertion that near death experiences take peoples souls to an actual heaven or hell is utterly unjustified...





Quote:
I don't deny that people have spiritual experiences...



Quote:
You are selectively picking reports of experiences....QUOTE]


Most Drs with a higher education than you disagree::

Quote:
CHICAGO - A survey examining religion in medicine found that most U.S. doctors believe in God and an afterlife — a surprising degree of spirituality in a science-based field, researchers say.

In the survey of 1,044 doctors nationwide, 76 percent said they believe in God, 59 percent said they believe in some sort of afterlife, ...

“We were surprised to find that physicians were as religious as they apparently are,” said Dr. Farr Curlin, a researcher at the University of Chicago’s MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics.






“There’s certainly a deep-seated cultural idea that science and religion are at odds,” and previous studies have suggested that fewer than half of scientists believe in God, Curlin said Wednesday.


A previous survey showed about 83 percent of the general population believes in God.

But while medicine is science-based, doctors differ from scientists who work primarily in a laboratory setting, and their direct contact with patients in life-and-death situations may explain the differing views, Curlin said.

Important to end-of-life issues
The study is based on responses to questionnaires mailed in 2003. It is to appear in an upcoming issue of the Journal of General Internal Medicine and was released online to subscribers earlier this month.

Dr. J. Edward Hill, president of the American Medical Association, said religion and medicine are completely compatible, as long as doctors do not force their own beliefs on patients.

Belief in “a supreme being ... is vitally important to physicians’ ability to take care of patients, particularly the end-of-life issues that we deal with so often,” said Hill, a family physician from Tupelo, Miss.

Religions among physicians are more varied than among the general population, the survey found. While more than 80 percent of the U.S. population is Protestant or Catholic, 60 percent of doctors said they were from either group.

Compared with the general population, more doctors were Jewish — 14 percent vs. 2 percent; Hindu — 5 percent vs. less than 1 percent; and Muslim — almost 3 percent vs. less than 1 percent.
The trouble with you A_W is you always want material proof from non material world and dismiss what credible people have to say about what they've experienced.

So for the time being, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Old 12-28-2008, 12:29 AM   #29
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I'm on track for a PhD, and will be getting articles published in scientific journals in 2009, give me a few more years and I can be a "quotable authority", but that doesn't validate any of my arguments; they are justifiable on the basis of the facts that I cited. You are making an appeal to authority, and it is very weak. Just because a majority of people believe that something is true does not make it true; just because the bulk of doctors believe in God and the afterlife doesn't make God or an afterlife true.

Peoples anecdotal evidence and experience is important, it is revealing, but what it means is the question; reflexively assuming that it validates the supernatural when other explanations fit without calling in the impossible is poor thinking. You can't say that these claims validate the existence of angels while claiming that they cannot be proven, boxing them off into a non-material world creates all sorts of problems about how they interact with people and various paradoxes which may arise due to their properties.

Medical doctors are slightly less religious than the general population, although the poll doesn't ask what type of God they believe in. 93% of the members of the national academy of sciences don't believe in a personal god. This doesn't come down to support anything other than cultural differences between pure sciences and medicine.

As far as Dr. Hill goes, this quote stands out
Quote:
Belief in “a supreme being ... is vitally important to physicians’ ability to take care of patients, particularly the end-of-life issues that we deal with so often,”
Now in this context it sounds like he is saying that an atheist doctor would be unable to take care of patients in palliative care, and it comes across as bigoted.
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Old 12-28-2008, 12:37 AM   #30
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The trouble with you A_W is you always want material proof from non material world and dismiss what credible people have to say about what they've experienced.
Every great advance in natural knowledge has involved the absolute rejection of authority. - Thomas H. Huxley
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