An open letter to George W. Bush - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-23-2009, 04:38 PM   #121
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Saddam has to fully cooperate for the UN inspectors to be able to do their job. The UN inspectors made no progress, NONE, on accounting for thousands of stocks of WMD that had remained unaccounted for since they were last there in November 1998. Saddam did nothing to try to account for such stocks, and hid programs related to the production of WMD that were in violation of multiple UN resolutions and the Gulf War Ceacefire agreement. If Saddam had any intention of coming clean, he could have taken the UN inspectors to these programs as soon as they stepped off the plane in November 2002. Instead, these things were found by the US military and other investigators in the summer and fall of 2003 after Saddam had been removed from power.



Bush got resolution 1441 passed in November which along with other UN resolutions authorized the coaltion to take military action to bring about compliance. Saddam's had several months to peacefully come into compliance, and he did NOTHING to successfully resolve any of the outstanding issues and its been proven that he never disclosed program related WMD activities. The UN inspectors were never authorized to inspect for set period of time, nor was any minimum time set before which military action could begin.

If the UN was opposed to the invasion, where is the UN resolution or attempt at one to condemn the invasion in 2003? Where is the UN resolution or attempt at one to call for the withdrawal of all coalition forces from Iraqi territory? Instead, we have resolution UN resolution 1483 being passed in the summer of 2003 authorizing the occupation of Iraq by US and coalition forces. The UN has authorized the occupation every year since then, yet you claim that Bush did not work with the UN.




The need for military action is explained in UN resolution 1441 and continues to this very day to be the chief reason why the Bush administration supported the removal of Saddam from power. Colin Powell and Condi Rice to this day still explain the need to remove Saddam based on his failure to comply with UN resolutions, his past behavior, and the crumbling of sanctions and the weapons embargo. No one has ever claimed that the United States removed Saddam from power because he was being "cruel" to his own people. Sorry, but no one lied.




Once again the inspections process is a peaceful process that requires the FULL ACTIVE cooperation of Saddam regime. The UN inspectors never got that from Saddam either in the 1990s, or in late 2002 and early 2003. Simply being allowed into the country resolves nothing as Bill Clinton found out at the end of his administration.




Clinton carefully stated, in the same way Bush would four years later, that Saddam was a threat to the region and the security of the world. That the ONLY way to remove this threat once and for all was through regime change, not endless inspections that Saddam could always fool.

Not a surprise that Bill Clinton, his chief advisor on Iraq Kenneth Pollack, and his wife then a Senator, all supported Bush's ground invasion to remove Saddam.
I'm done.

I just hope people who do not understand these issues don't buy into your fear-mongering propaganda. That would be scary.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:22 PM   #122
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the idea that the March 2003 invasion was a logical continuation of Clinton foreign policy is fundamentally absurd unless you can answer yes to any of the following questions:

1. Would GWB have invaded Iraq in March of 2003 had 3,000 people not been murdered in Manhattan on 9/11/01?

2. Would a President Gore have invaded Iraq in March of 2003 even if 3,000 people had been murdered in Manhattan on 9/11/01?

3. If President Clinton somehow had a third term, would he have invaded Iraq regardless of 9/11/01?

4. Would a President Kerry have invaded Iraq had he won in 2004 had Bush not invaded Iraq?
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:22 PM   #123
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i see -- so all the people in Gitmo are Iraqi insurgents?

or did Gitmo open before the Iraq war and is for general GWOT detainees.

please, let me know when the GWOT is scheduled to end.
Doesn't matter to me whether they were hauled out of Iraq or some other random hellhole.

Each detainee has their own rap sheet, and will be judged individually by whatever legal process the Obama Administration decides on. I'm sure the detainees deemed most dangerous won't be released, and that's good enough for me.

The worst ones will just be transfered from Guant√°namo to some other jail that isn't quite so famous.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:46 PM   #124
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Harry Reid beat purpleoscar to the punch, almost two years ago.

The Surge had failed, and the Iraq war was lost.

Over.
Truth.

Just as folks like Sting, will not acknowledge the 'Office of Special Plans' and it's manufacturing of intel, there are those who will not acknowledge the success of 'The Surge', including the brain dead Democratic leadership.

It's a maddening circle.

Just gimme some truth, all I want is the truth.
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Old 01-24-2009, 08:53 PM   #125
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1. Bush was in office for roughly 9 months before Sept 11th. I'm sure the plans had been in motion before he was elected, bt its not as if, he'd only be in power a day and it happened. What happened to all the intelligence that shoul;d have been collected till then?

2. The Saddam is a bad man and needed to be removed argument is BULLSHIT. You didNOT do the world a favour by going in all gung ho to get him, as someone else said, what made Iraq the target after Sept 11th? Bush didn't talk about disablising the middle east in the 8 months before Sept 11th, so what changed? It could be BIN LADEN as he had NOTHING to do with Iraq, and although that was propagandaed around the place, there never was a clear link. What shits me the most with this argument is this, sure Saddam was screwed up, he caused a lot of death and problems in his country, but you know what, there are DOZENS of these people screwing around with human rights, systematically killing off a race of people in their county right NOW.
You have Saudi Arabia with their terrfying human rights track record
Laos, where a race of people are almost EXTINCT due to ethnic cleansing
North Korea, with a crazed man in power who has poisoned millions of minds to worship him like a God (and would carry out any command he issued)
China with their abomination of human rights, their shady governments and their input into the whole Tibet crisis
Sudan where militia factors are fighting every DAy and hundreds of thousands of people are being killed
Zimbabwe where Mugabe has run that country so far into the ground i doubt it ever can heal, thousands of people are starving, poor and unable to leave, people are being killed every day.
Palestine and Israel conflict - too much stuff it even go into.
Russia and Chechnya, or russia with any of its former lands now independent countries, that is run by a former KGB agent where people have disappeared or been killed for dissent or having a different opinion from someone else
Pakistan who are dealing with their own civil unrest, not to mention high tensions with India.
and so on and so on and so on... Saddam was bad, but you know what we LIVE in a world of turmoil., where are the troops sweeping in to ANY of those countries and imposing the sort of treatment they have imposed in Iraq.
The US didn't do the world a favour by invading and disposing Saddam all it did was fuel the hatred already simmering in hardcore islamic extremists, and the annoyance from other first world countries dragged into a conflict we didn't want to be a part of. Thanks to the US if I ever wanted to the visit the middle east, well thats now off the cards!
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Old 01-25-2009, 06:47 AM   #126
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At this point I have nothing to add to this discussion except to say that I am so frigging PROUD to be part of this community!

This is such a stimulating discussion - both pro and con - and the level of intelligence of all my fellow members is absolutely staggering.

I'd just like to pause for a second and say thank you to all of you - it makes me feel so good to be part of such a socially-concious forum.

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Old 01-25-2009, 07:35 AM   #127
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At this point I have nothing to add to this discussion except to say that I am so frigging PROUD to be part of this community!

This is such a stimulating discussion - both pro and con - and the level of intelligence of all my fellow members is absolutely staggering.

I'd just like to pause for a second and say thank you to all of you - it makes me feel so good to be part of such a socially-concious forum.

you come away feeling good after this? wow. i wish i could say the same thing... i always feel worse, somehow.

and yet, i keep returning. have for nearly a decade now. yikes.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:38 PM   #128
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Conservatives make me feel ill, honestly.

However, in my lifetime, I've converted three conservatives to become somewhere between moderate and liberal, so, I still believe there's hope. Which is why I come here.
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Old 01-25-2009, 06:03 PM   #129
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Conservatives make me feel ill, honestly.

However, in my lifetime, I've converted three conservatives to become somewhere between moderate and liberal, so, I still believe there's hope. Which is why I come here.
I thought that liberals were supposed to value diversity.
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Old 01-25-2009, 06:39 PM   #130
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I thought that liberals were supposed to value diversity.


does diversity include bad thinking?

not wrong thinking, *bad* thinking. certainly not all ideas are of equal merit.

or is this more about "equal time" where we should take the time to "teach the controversy" over subjects like evolution and the age of the earth?
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Old 01-25-2009, 06:42 PM   #131
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Just gimme some truth, all I want is the truth.

the truth is that "the surge" was an effective short-term military tactic that was buttressed by some fundamental shifts in the population away from AQI after several superlatively debauched attacks on Iraqi citizens. however, what "the surge" has done most effectively is to make sure that American blood and treasure will continue to be poured into the sands of Mesopotamia for another decade.
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Old 01-25-2009, 06:50 PM   #132
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does diversity include bad thinking?

not wrong thinking, *bad* thinking. certainly not all ideas are of equal merit.

or is this more about "equal time" where we should take the time to "teach the controversy" over subjects like evolution and the age of the earth?
Conservatism is now bad thinking?

Next you'll be saying they should be institutionalised.
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:03 PM   #133
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Conservatism is now bad thinking?

Next you'll be saying they should be institutionalised.


as expressed in FYM as of late, with the exception of a scant few posters, yes. the quality of the argument as exemplified by endless, droning posts that haven't changed at all since 2004 hardly qualifies as good.

now, what's the next thing i'm going to be saying?
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:09 PM   #134
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That financeguy is an exception because he isn't one of those stupid American conservatives?
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:20 PM   #135
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That financeguy is an exception because he isn't one of those stupid American conservatives?
Well, I don't know if anyone could argue this as many the sources financeguy uses are American 'traditional conservative' sources.

It all depends on what is and is not included in the 'conservative family'.
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