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Old 07-07-2013, 02:29 PM   #106
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That "Divine system" is part of what Jesus was referring to when he mentions the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not just Heaven, but Heaven and Earth united.
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. - Luke 17:21

The Bible, and even the lost gospels, doesn't make it sound like Jesus was setting up a theocracy. By saying the above quote, it sounded like the Kingdom Jesus wanted would be brought by people who followed God in their hearts, by the power of the Holy Spirit, in a mystical/spiritual sense. In other words, in order to bring forth the Kingdom of God, people would have to be transformed by the Spirit, and be siblings of Jesus from that, and then the Kingdom would be possible. Humans cannot set up the Kingdom with the hearts and minds they already have.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:51 PM   #107
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Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. - Luke 17:21

The Bible, and even the lost gospels, doesn't make it sound like Jesus was setting up a theocracy. By saying the above quote, it sounded like the Kingdom Jesus wanted would be brought by people who followed God in their hearts, by the power of the Holy Spirit, in a mystical/spiritual sense. In other words, in order to bring forth the Kingdom of God, people would have to be transformed by the Spirit, and be siblings of Jesus from that, and then the Kingdom would be possible. Humans cannot set up the Kingdom with the hearts and minds they already have.
Perhaps it is more of a "Both/And" scenario vs. "Either/Or"

I agree, it is not a theocracy in the way we traditionally view it. Although - during the Second Coming, as I understand it, that is what it will be.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:58 AM   #108
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What NT Wright is describing is more of an amillenialist position- that the Kingdom of God exists in the present, in the hearts of believers who spread it through righteous action, and who will help bring others to understand and believe in him. That is a classical Christian position, and it is very, very different to a political theocracy, which is what you mentioned in your prior comment.

Theocracy means something very particular, and they have very rarely turned out good. "Government by divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. In many theocracies, government leaders are members of the clergy, and the state's legal system is based on religious law. Theocratic rule was typical of early civilizations. The Enlightenment marked the end of theocracy in most Western countries. Contemporary examples of theocracies include Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the Vatican." - From the Concise Encyclopedia

I think Jesus wanted people to do their jobs righteously, whatever they were. But the evidence that Jesus was interested in reforming governments to express religion as part of a political system is extremely thin.

But it's true that Christians in a modern democracy have a question before them which is almost unique in history. They are able to take part in forming policy. How much that is unique to their own faith should be inserted as law that applies to those who don't believe?
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:04 AM   #109
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But back to the subject of birth, here's a recent article on Pitocin. It's a synthetic oxytocin which is widely used in hospitals to start and augment labors. Its use causes a lot of expensive care because something like 60% of labors started with it fail to progress to a vaginal delivery, and the babies are then born by C section, which are 2-3 times more expensive. Lots of studies have been done on its effects on maternal outcomes, but this is the first one looking at its effects on babies. ACOG - Study Finds Adverse Effects of Pitocin in Newborns

Basically, it does some things that we don't want it to do and costs the healthcare system a lot of money, so they are looking at reviewing its use and indications.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:16 AM   #110
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What NT Wright is describing is more of an amillenialist position- that the Kingdom of God exists in the present, in the hearts of believers who spread it through righteous action, and who will help bring others to understand and believe in him. That is a classical Christian position, and it is very, very different to a political theocracy, which is what you mentioned in your prior comment.
Thank you, Jeevey. I think you are certainly correct about our conventional, post-Enlightenment understanding of theocracy. However, I don't think N.T. Wright's definition fully matches what you're describing - hence, he's a bit controversial, but not in an extreme way.

I don't want to lead the discussion too far off topic, but I wanted to clarify why I said what I did, as I was influenced by N.T.Wright on this position.

Quote:
from the article "So, who's up for a little theocracy"

The theme of his [N.T. Wright] talk was “Why we’ve all misunderstood the gospels.” For him, the gospels are, at their core, a proclamation of theocracy, the news that God has actually become king.
To be fair, N.T. Wright does deviate from the classical view of theocracy that you cited - as the kingdom as he describes it exists in a more "real" way than just in the hearts of the believers.

So, who’s up for a little theocracy?
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:18 AM   #111
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But it's true that Christians in a modern democracy have a question before them which is almost unique in history. They are able to take part in forming policy. How much that is unique to their own faith should be inserted as law that applies to those who don't believe?
This is more accurately captures my intention, thank you.
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