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Old 07-03-2013, 09:18 AM   #31
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The entire point of insurance is that you HOPE you never need it. But we can never know this for sure, we don't know what lies in the future. Even the most healthy people can still get in accidents, or get cancer. Even if you minimizez the risks, there's still a chance. Sure, I bitch sometimes about paying for insurance I don't use. But then I think how goddamn lucky I am that I don't NEED to use it. It means I'm still healthy.
True and I think it's also related to the monthly HI premium we have to pay. The monthly premium for the basic (mandatory) coverage is about $125 - $150, on top of my head without using a currency converter. It differs a bit between which insurance company you're with, but that's about it. On top of that there's the yearly co-pay of $400 - $450 (I think) for specialist procedures and medicines. But anything higher and it's all covered by the insurance. This is mostly about 'necessary' procedures. Like when you need surgery for a broken bone, appendicites, cancer, etc.
I believe these costs are significantly lower than they are in the US. Hence, there's probably also less of an 'entitlement issue' (though some probably still feel like it).
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:29 AM   #32
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Very good question.

I really won't call those "socialized" services. Historically, police and fire are core services provided by any form of government. They provide a benefit to society as a whole rather than to the individual. We actually have similar elements within healthcare such as mandatory vaccinations.

Healthcare has traditionally been an individual responsibility. I don't see a cross over between the two.
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nbcrusader, I'm interested to know how a healthy population doesn't benefit society as a whole. I'm willing to admit that American medicine is deeply fucked- no arguements here- but in fact national health insurance works a lot like a fire department. Everybody pays. Not everybody uses it all the time, but everybody can rely on the ability to use it when they need it. Everybody benefits from the increased safety and is protected from the errors and mishaps of their neighbors as well as their own, whether it's a fire spreading from one house to another or controlling the spread of an epidemic.
I would also like to understand this better. Where is the difference? And 'tradition' isn't a reasonable answer in my book.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:24 PM   #33
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I would also like to understand this better. Where is the difference? And 'tradition' isn't a reasonable answer in my book.
The healthcare equivalent of police and fire services is the Center for Disease Control (CDC). The CDC, coupled with mandatory vaccination programs, protects society as a whole where it would be difficult, if not impossible, to protect oneself.

The Affordable Care Act, on the other hand, covers a wide range of non-catastrophic conditions. No need for government protection of society, as it is government protection of the individual (sometimes from themselves).
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:30 PM   #34
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Fire service wasn't always a government run service.

Just sayin.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:34 PM   #35
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A friend of mine on Facebook has been really upset about a medical procedure that is proving to be extremely expensive even with insurance. She's also not able to get it done when she'd like to and she's just really upset about it. I don't fault her for it, and I feel really bad for her situation.

The ironic thing is that a lot of her friends, who are conservative and very anti-Obamacare (she is too) are writing in sympathasizing and talking about how in other countries you wouldn't have to pay so much and or even get the procedure done for free and how Obama has really messed up our health care. The irony is just unbelievable. But I didn't have the heart to point it out, considering how distraught she is.

England and Australia were mentioned by name.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:37 PM   #36
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To be clear, people who favor national health care do not consider the Affordable Care act to be a solution to all our problems. To my mind it's a rather half-assed fix that fails to address the real problems that make American medicine so expensive. It's better than before, but not great. I doubt America will ever have the balls to do a European style overhaul.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:45 PM   #37
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Fire service wasn't always a government run service.

Just sayin.

Likewise, the CDC doesn't directly respond to individuals in needlike the police and fire departments do, nor is the CDC in every town in America
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:47 PM   #38
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I doubt America will ever have the balls to do a European style overhaul.
How about ANY kind of overhaul.

I am a conservative, and I think that health care is basic human right. It goes right to core of our national values of Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness.

My desire to "heal" every human being on US soil (well, the entire world - but we are talking about the US for now) as much a possible stems from my faith, which motivates me to love, which works through modern technology and medicine (as well as prayer, of course).

Health care is not, and never should be, considered a business enterprise.

The good news is that as technology improves - I believe you will see a return of the house doctor and small local clinics to treat the minor aches and pains at a very low cost. Hopefully the more expensive items will come down the same way IT costs have come down (price per performance cost).
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:48 PM   #39
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To be clear, people who favor national health care do not consider the Affordable Care act to be a solution to all our problems. To my mind it's a rather half-assed fix that fails to address the real problems that make American medicine so expensive. It's better than before, but not great. I doubt America will ever have the balls to do a European style overhaul.
I think the ACA is a pretty crappy piece of legislation, mostly because it tries to suck and blow at the same time, so to speak.

What is important about it is that it brought to the forefront a discussion of the standard of American healthcare, how America is singularly different from every other western democracy, the stories about bankruptcies, appalling behaviour by insurance companies, etc.

The ACA is (an arguably bad) starting point, that's all.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:51 PM   #40
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I am a conservative, and I think that health care is basic human right. It goes right to core of our national values of Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness.

My desire to "heal" every human being on US soil (well, the entire world - but we are talking about the US for now) as much a possible stems from my faith, which motivates me to love, which works through modern technology and medicine (as well as prayer, of course).

Health care is not, and never should be, considered a business enterprise.
That's lovely. I'm glad to hear that some conservative Christians interpret things in this way.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:02 PM   #41
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How about ANY kind of overhaul.
Well, that's what we got with the ACA and that's pretty much a bust as far as I'm concerned. Essentially all it's done is ensure that every American will have to deal with high premiums and deductibles they can't afford.

Okay, I grant that is a gross oversimplification, but you get my drift.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:07 PM   #42
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what happens if you get cancer?
this might not answer your question as some don't consider skin cancer to be cancer, but my mom is in this situation right now. had she been able to see the usual doctor she'd go to last year, it wouldn't be an issue right now.

however, they no longer accept her insurance, and from these procedures in the past, she's seen invoices of how much insurance covered and couldn't afford $20k+.

it took her six months to find a doctor on her insurance plan who would work on her, while the area spread. it went from needing stitches to needing a graft. then the graft didn't take. she just had the second graft put on a week and a half ago, hopefully this time it took. all because of insurance crap. i'm not posting this for anyone to sympathise, just to point out this bullshit with insurance. i don't expect everything to be free (thanks to taxes it wouldn't be anyway), but being able to see a doctor one day and not the next is infuriating.

and before anyone says it, it's not just because she laid out in the sun too much.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:11 PM   #43
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Well, that's what we got with the ACA and that's pretty much a bust as far as I'm concerned. Essentially all it's done is ensure that every American will have to deal with high premiums and deductibles they can't afford.

Okay, I grant that is a gross oversimplification, but you get my drift.
My hope is that the ACA is a first step in the right direction, I think we were so f##ked that it would have taken a full reboot and everyone knows that would have been impossible. It's going to take decades, insurance companies, drug companies, and yes lawyers have manipulated the system for so long now that it's like a fishing line that had been getting knotted up for years and now you're trying to untangle it.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:12 PM   #44
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this might not answer your question as some don't consider skin cancer to be cancer, but my mom is in this situation right now. had she been able to see the usual doctor she'd go to last year, it wouldn't be an issue right now.

however, they no longer accept her insurance, and from these procedures in the past, she's seen invoices of how much insurance covered and couldn't afford $20k+.

it took her six months to find a doctor on her insurance plan who would work on her, while the area spread. it went from needing stitches to needing a graft. then the graft didn't take. she just had the second graft put on a week and a half ago, hopefully this time it took. all because of insurance crap. i'm not posting this for anyone to sympathise, just to point out this bullshit with insurance. i don't expect everything to be free (thanks to taxes it wouldn't be anyway), but being able to see a doctor one day and not the next is infuriating.

and before anyone says it, it's not just because she laid out in the sun too much.
I hope she recovers well and that the second graft works. That sounds like a truly awful situation. Very similar to what my friend was describing.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:15 PM   #45
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My hope is that the ACA is a first step in the right direction, I think we were so f##ked that it would have taken a full reboot and everyone knows that would have been impossible. It's going to take decades, insurance companies, drug companies, and yes lawyers have manipulated the system for so long now that it's like a fishing line that had been getting knotted up for years and now you're trying to untangle it.
In my opinion nationalized health care, yes, the dreaded "socialized medicine" is the best bet.

But of course it'll never happen.

Maybe if it was socialized at the state level, it might have a chance?

But I doubt it.
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