Alcohol and Sex: How do you gauge the line of consent?

[mama cass]

it's ok

that's sweet of you to worry about the girl i guess! i didn't think of it that way... i guess as a woman, i would be EXTREMELY vocal about rejecting any unwelcome attention lol!! so i would assume that others would be too...

it's a tricky one - definitely if there is an attack going on, intervention is essential i would think... friends of mine and even family members have ended up in fights protecting others, even people they didn't know, and in the situations i am aware of, their intervention was very much appreciated by the victim... but i think those situations were incredibly clear-cut and obvious and the women involved were very upset and wanting help...

i know here in France there is a law against failing to assist someone in danger, so there is a civil responsibility to help in such situations...

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I can live with feeling a bit foolish and naive at not having realized that a situation was essentially innocuous--something that would have been obvious to most everyone else apparently. I wouldn't have been able to live with myself had it been a situation where someone needed help and I did nothing. So I'm glad it turned out to be the former rather than the latter.

I don't think you have anything to worry about-you're a good guy. I get it

 

[Liesje]

I've seen Sean rocking out at a concert, he's no perv and he knows how to have a good time!

 

[yolland]

but he was violently raping her!

Was there anal or oral penetration?

Not appropriate.

 

[maycocksean]

It wasn't an obvious attack of course. I just wasn't sure where the line was between "I wouldn't have let that happen if I was sober, but hey, that's why I was drunk" and "I was so drunk I didn't realize what was happening"

When I was in college a close friend was raped by one of our high school classmates (no charges pressed or anything, and the impression he seemed to have is that they "hooked up"). Both were intoxicated at the time. So I've been perhaps a little hypersensitive on this issue.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Not funny

fixed. And I don't mean I was offended, I just mean it was neither clever nor humorous .

 

[Steved1998]

You should report it to the head coach and never follow up again.

 

[canedge]

Not appropriate.

I think it does pertain. As far as a I know, rape involves penetration or entering anothers body. Whereas sexual assault is a is more of a grope or unwanted touching.

Please be specific before we continue this conversation. The word rape is sorta loaded and also implies force. My guess that in a concert situation a sexual assault would be more probable.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think the point might have been that Sean never suggested (and no one else did) that anyone was violently raping anyone. But you brought that up, for whatever reasons. It's not about the semantics of it, because no one was suggesting that. I don't think any sort of violence or penetration is required in order to make an individual uncomfortable with a situation. You are making one giant leap to that anti male all men are rapists thing.

 

[canedge]

I think that giant leaps are what scares me when it comes to 'rape'.

 

[Irvine511]

I think that giant leaps are what scares me when it comes to 'rape'.

no one is doing that in this thread other than you.

Sean clearly wondered about a "sexual assault." the rest of the posts have been about what is and isn't appropriate PDA and the role of alcohol, as well as what a great guy Sean is for even being concerned about this.

 

[bono_212]

I think it does pertain. As far as a I know, rape involves penetration or entering anothers body. Whereas sexual assault is a is more of a grope or unwanted touching.

Please be specific before we continue this conversation. The word rape is sorta loaded and also implies force. My guess that in a concert situation a sexual assault would be more probable.

Are you serious? What is wrong with you. You make unfunny offensive posts aimed in the direction of a guy who was just trying to be a good person, and you think that anything you said should be taken seriously and is at all comparable to discussion that Yolland was making in another thread? Get over yourself. You're not funny, and trivializing rape isn't either.

 

[canedge]

I didn't realize maycocksean was male and yes that does change the connotation of the posts. I apologize to him. And I don't think that rape, as it is discussed in internet forums, should be taken that seriously. The internet is not the problem venue to discuss something such as this.

Sometimes I think that word is used for dramatic impact is very loaded and offensive. That is all I am saying.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I didn't realize maycocksean was male

Probably says more about your oversensitivity than anything else.

And what makes you think people can't have meaningful conversations on the internet?

 

[maycocksean]

I find it interesting that candedge's assessment of my take on the situation would change so much based on my gender.

Had I been a woman I would have deserved the ribbing, but as a man I deserve an apology? I think that's worth unpacking.

I found it funny that someone thought I was a woman, though I suppose there's no reason why my gender should be obvious from my posts.

Some of the most meaningful conversations I've ever had on the topics of religion and politics, happened on the internet right here in this very forum. Some have even changed my life!

 

[ryancoke71]

I didn't realize maycocksean was male and yes that does change the connotation of the posts. I apologize to him. And I don't think that rape, as it is discussed in internet forums, should be taken that seriously. The internet is not the problem venue to discuss something such as this.

Sometimes I think that word is used for dramatic impact is very loaded and offensive. That is all I am saying.

The fact that the connotation of the posts would change based on his gender is offensive to me, as a woman. For the record, rape should always be taken seriously, wherever it is discussed.

Maycocksean, I think it is admirable that you were concerned when you saw this situation. There are far too many that wouldn't give it a second thought!

 

[bono_212]

Your user name is Sean...

 

[maycocksean]

^To me that clearly would suggest male. . .but maybe he didn't read my username that way?

 

[BVS]

I find it interesting that candedge's assessment of my take on the situation would change so much based on my gender.

Had I been a woman I would have deserved the ribbing, but as a man I deserve an apology? I think that's worth unpacking.

Combined with some other posts, it's very telling isn't it?

 

[maycocksean]

^Fraid so.

 

[Irvine511]

anyway, back on topic, where i went to college, the laws of the state were such that if a woman had consumed even a single drink she was legally unable to consent to sexual activity. this did not apply to men because he was in possession of the "weapon" used to commit the crime.

this seemed stupid to me, not to mention heteronormative and incredibly patronizing to women.

but it also seemed to want to address some very difficult questions.

thoughts?

 

[yolland]

Well, the obvious strike against it is that it's going to be completely ignored by everyone far too often to be fairly called enforceable. By that definition probably 85% of women, me included, have had (oops, I mean been subjected to) 'clear cut' nonconsensual sex.

If I had to defend it, I guess I'd offer that A) it seems intended as much for men's protection as for women's, and B) it's at least an attempt to impose some kind of concrete interpretive framework on the area where most people agree legitimate (yet grave) misunderstandings are most likely to occur. The fact that our culture (still) broadly tends to automatically assign the sexual initiator/'manager' role to men does create negotiation problems for both sexes--women don't come equipped with flashing 50-ft. neon signs clarifying the difference between a silence that means "I want this, but I'm feeling a little shy and unsure how you'd like it" (or even, "I think it'd be a huge turn-on if you did the cliched, torrid-show-of-overwhelming-passion thing right now"), vs. a silence that means "I had wanted this, but now that you've abruptly switched gears from being affectionate, gentle and respectful to being pushy, overbearing and aggressively presumptuous, I'm rapidly changing my mind." Add to that the difficulties alcohol can introduce with grasping a linear progression of events (drunken amorousness isn't necessarily strategic) and you've got a pretty good recipe for communication trouble. Particularly with someone you don't know well, it's always a good idea to directly, repeatedly and sincerely ask; and realistically, if you need to in the first place to be 100% clear on the answer, chances are she's already feeling a bit awkward anyway (which isn't necessarily anyone's 'fault'), so relax, this'll just make two of you. But a hard-and-fast one-drink rule--yeah, not practical.

I would add something like "And don't allow yourself to be outright drunk while alone with people you don't fully trust" (as a general point really, not specific to sex), but, since I've witnessed firsthand that people can't always count on their (drunk) best buddies to help them even when they're passed out in their own vomit, unfortunately that one's probably a lost cause.