Alcohol Abuse

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Yes, I was alluding more to the social stigma of obesity which may (or may not?) interfere with some true medical solutions to the epidemic rather than just a bazillion dollar diet industry that profits from people struggling with the problem, not fixing it.

It's come up recently in other threads as a problem that has a simple solution (eat well, exercise) but after reading this thread about addiction as a disease, I'm gathering that it's just as complicated and not necessarily helpful to tell a compulsive eater to just stop eating as it would be to tell an anorexic to just eat a sandwich or an alcoholic to just quit drinking.

Clearly those with problems have to acknowledge them and do whatever it takes to deal with their health issues. Easier said than done I guess, but blame and shame probably just make it worse.
Absolutely, it does make it worse, and we could probably think of all 'weight problems' as being on a continuum in that sense. Even for someone who's not the type to relentlessly beat themselves up for supposedly being 'lazy,' 'greedy,' 'weak' etc., it's still going to be tough initially to adjust to more exercise, smaller portions, fewer calorie-dense foods, and whatever other (probably permanent) lifestyle changes you'll need to make to lose weight. And food is a favorite source of comfort for many people, so the more reasons you have to crave comforting, the harder it'll make the process. But realistically, it's hard to imagine the idealization of slenderness in our society abating anytime soon (and by idealization I mean not only image saturation, but also some of the more irrational fantasies associated with that--that to be 'thin' is to be particularly worthy of admiration, love, success and so on, and by extension to be 'fat' to be pathetic, dislikeable, a failure). And so long as it's out there, you're going to have an industry capitalizing on it--"Look hot in a bathing suit by summer!! results guaranteed!!!"--alongside the more sober and reasonable approach advocated by doctors, nutritionists, some weight-loss books, and organizations like Weight Watchers. The thing is, though, all of us understand intellectually that those idealization fantasies are just that, fantasies; that weight loss isn't actually a moral crusade or a longterm investment in your lovability. So I guess it becomes a question of how vulnerable you are to excessive emotional investment in that fantasy (and others' projections of the same), which is a pretty complex thing. Clearly, for some people it works out fine to use 'looking their best' as a motivating goal, and they don't send themselves into some self-destructive emotional tailspin by doing that. But if you already tend towards a poor self-image on multiple fronts, or if you're addiction-prone and wont to go overboard treating substances or behaviors as 'medication' for problems they can never address, or if you simply aren't that motivated by looking good when it comes down to it, then maybe that route won't work out so well.

Ultimately, increasingly sedentary lifestyles plus widespread, inexpensive access to calorie-dense foods is the main reason why we're seeing epidemic overweight and obesity now. Most governments in the countries where this has become a serious medical concern seem to be directing most of their public health resources towards preventing child obesity, which I guess is the right approach; better to establish good eating and exercise habits young, rather than struggle to reform bad ones after 4 or 5 decades' worth of attachment to them. Of course we can't afford to ignore adults' statistics either but, unfortunately, there we have to rely very heavily on individuals' motivation to reform their own lifestyles; there are limits to what we can do in terms of incentives and disincentives, not that those avenues are by any means exhausted yet.

To go back to the 'continuum' thing, though...while it's obviously the job of a professional alone to ascertain whether someone has a clinical eating disorder, I do think it's important to recognize the difference between that and plain old 'bad habits,' which are far more typical causes of being overweight or obese. If someone is regularly doing things like returning to the kitchen after dinner and compulsively taking in 8000 calories at a standing, literally eating themselves into a stupor despite not feeling hungry, then they've got problems with food and eating that something like Weight Watchers isn't designed to address.
 
To go back to the 'continuum' thing, though...while it's obviously the job of a professional alone to ascertain whether someone has a clinical eating disorder, I do think it's important to recognize the difference between that and plain old 'bad habits,' which are far more typical causes of being overweight or obese. If someone is regularly doing things like returning to the kitchen after dinner and compulsively taking in 8000 calories at a standing, literally eating themselves into a stupor despite not feeling hungry, then they've got problems with food and eating that something like Weight Watchers isn't designed to address.

Right, like the difference between a heavy drinker who has some semblance of control over consumption versus an alcoholic and determining when a transition may occur from one to the other and acknowledging that the approaches to addressing each situation would be very different.

So my observation is that maybe there are more eating disorders and disease factors in obesity beyond 'bad habits' that the diet industry is not designed to address.
 
well diabetes is a disease while alcoholism while seen as a "disease" but in fact is a lifestyle disease. Diabetes can't help if they get it (im not talking about lifestyle 2 ones) but my only comment is, to forever deny yourself something is not natural. And i think it leads into a 'all or nothing' type outlook on alcohol or whatever. Its just a really depressing outlook thats all.
 
well diabetes is a disease while alcoholism while seen as a "disease" but in fact is a lifestyle disease.

:banghead: You have no clue as to what you are talking about!!! They've been able to prove it's hereditary, even in cases where the child was raised outside the parent's house without any knowing or contact. But I doubt that someone who has no respect for medicine in general will accept this.
 
Diabetics can't and don't avoid sugar, actually. It's impossible. It's in most food, even milk and fruit has sugar, as you know! It has to be counted and accounted for with insulin doses, is all.
:)

Well sugar in excess. I know diabetics can't avoid bread, but they can certainly avoid Snickers bars.
One diabetic in high school defiantly ate candy/sugar all the time, and drank non-diet soda. We would always say something, but I don't think any of us cared too much. He was kind of an asshole. :wink:

Last I heard of him he was still an asshole. :up: Assholism, another disease.
 
well diabetes is a disease while alcoholism while seen as a "disease" but in fact is a lifestyle disease.

o rly??????????????

And your vast experience with alcoholics, or the medical field, or anything at all that would point out this factual data accounts for this statement?
 
Well sugar in excess. I know diabetics can't avoid bread, but they can certainly avoid Snickers bars.
One diabetic in high school defiantly ate candy/sugar all the time, and drank non-diet soda. We would always say something, but I don't think any of us cared too much. He was kind of an asshole. :wink:
exactly. i used to know a kid in high school who did pretty much what you described. he was hospitalized pretty often because he'd go into diabetic comas frequently due to consuming soda, doughnuts, candy, etc. while i thought he was one of the stupidest people alive to continue to put his health at risk, i also thought it was a bit sad that he'd do that. i really wondered if he just didn't care, or if he just couldn't control himself from eating sugary foods.
 
wow, obviously hitting some nerves here, not my intention. All I was mentioning is I feel sad for people who are alcoholics to never be able to drink alcohol again and never feel the sense of acomplishment when finishing something as you're always an alcoholic not a former one. I think it is a negative connotation rather then a positive one.

btw, its not not respect in general for medicine but a part of medicine that I believe is not as important as many other people believe it to be. But you obviously are itching for a continual argument over such thing as an opinion that I shall end it here.
 
I feel sad for people who are alcoholics to never be able to drink alcohol again and never feel the sense of acomplishment when finishing something as you're always an alcoholic not a former one.

For recovering alcoholics, drinking alcohol again is not an accomplishment. That's the point. Alcohol is not fun for alcoholics. It's a vice.
 
wow, obviously hitting some nerves here, not my intention. All I was mentioning is I feel sad for people who are alcoholics to never be able to drink alcohol again and never feel the sense of acomplishment when finishing something as you're always an alcoholic not a former one. I think it is a negative connotation rather then a positive one.

Sobriety is their sense of accomplishment, that's why they celebrate their anniversaries. Like Tiger said, drinking is not fun for alcoholics.

It's a very positive thing when someone can celebrate 10, 20 years of sobriety.
 
What a fascinating & meaningful thread! I am sorry I missed it last summer, but Google lead me here today.

I've been researching themes of addiction & recovery in U2's music, & it actually comes up a lot in the songs.

In the March 19, 2009 Rolling Stone (with the boys on the cover), Brian Hiatt discusses the lyrics from "Moment of Surrender" as being drawn directly from AA vernacular. In that section where Bono discusses addiction directly, Hiatt also notes "Clayton grappled with alcoholism and went to AA himself."

In Bill Flannagan's great book about the 90s U2, Clayton makes frank confessions including the piece that after the missed gig he "had to beat alcohol" & made a "life-changing decision" leading to this conclusion: "I think for me and the bottle -- it's over."

As a writer & a recently clean/sober fan, this is huge stuff for me; I consider myself "a Friend of Adam C's" & seek to meet other U2 fans who have walked a similar path.

As to the earlier questions about "why," someone in one of my meetings always says. "We drink because we are alcoholics."

Peaceout FYM.
 
What a fascinating & meaningful thread! I am sorry I missed it last summer, but Google lead me here today.

I've been researching themes of addiction & recovery in U2's music, & it actually comes up a lot in the songs.

In the March 19, 2009 Rolling Stone (with the boys on the cover), Brian Hiatt discusses the lyrics from "Moment of Surrender" as being drawn directly from AA vernacular. In that section where Bono discusses addiction directly, Hiatt also notes "Clayton grappled with alcoholism and went to AA himself."

In Bill Flannagan's great book about the 90s U2, Clayton makes frank confessions including the piece that after the missed gig he "had to beat alcohol" & made a "life-changing decision" leading to this conclusion: "I think for me and the bottle -- it's over."

As a writer & a recently clean/sober fan, this is huge stuff for me; I consider myself "a Friend of Adam C's" & seek to meet other U2 fans who have walked a similar path.

As to the earlier questions about "why," someone in one of my meetings always says. "We drink because we are alcoholics."

Peaceout FYM.

I have been not entirely comfortable with my relationship with alcohol for quite some time now. First few years on the drink (early to mid twenties) were fine, never a hint of darkness. I am almost 37 and want to get sober by 40, GWB style. I agree about themes around addiction being present in quite a few U2 songs. I don't think it is just about Adam's issue, I suspect Bono has a potentially addictive personality. The guy took up smoking iin his thirties for some bizarre reason and for a few years in the 1990s was rarely photographed without a cigar or cigarette in hand. I mean he seemed to go from not smoking at all to smoking all the time - granted, it might have been part of the ZooTV persona.
 
I'm sure I've seen a quote from Bono somewhere where he talks about his addictive personality and says how close he has come in the past to presumably becoming an alcoholic himself, but was always able to take a step back.
 
Thanks so much, y'all, for replying to my reboot of this thread.

Yes, in the same Rolling Stone piece from 2009, in the same section discussing M o S & Adam's AA & alcoholic experience, Bono remarks: "[T]here's a part of me that thinks 'Wow, I'm just an inch away.' There's no doubt about the fact that I have a wild streak & I'd be very capable of setting fire to myself. So, you know, I don't go to church for the view."
 
Was just looking for a place to put this..maybe this isn't the best but whatever

By Maria Cheng
AP Medical Writer / November 1, 2010

LONDON—Alcohol is more dangerous than illegal drugs like heroin and crack cocaine, according to a new study.

British experts evaluated substances including alcohol, cocaine, heroin, ecstasy and marijuana, ranking them based on how destructive they are to the individual who takes them and to society as a whole.

Researchers analyzed how addictive a drug is and how it harms the human body, in addition to other criteria like environmental damage caused by the drug, its role in breaking up families and its economic costs, such as health care, social services, and prison.

Heroin, crack cocaine and methamphetamine, or crystal meth, were the most lethal to individuals. When considering their wider social effects, alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine were the deadliest. But overall, alcohol outranked all other substances, followed by heroin and crack cocaine. Marijuana, ecstasy and LSD scored far lower.

The study was paid for by Britain's Centre for Crime and Justice Studies and was published online Monday in the medical journal, Lancet.

Experts said alcohol scored so high because it is so widely used and has devastating consequences not only for drinkers but for those around them.

"Just think about what happens (with alcohol) at every football game," said Wim van den Brink, a professor of psychiatry and addiction at the University of Amsterdam. He was not linked to the study and co-authored a commentary in the Lancet.

When drunk in excess, alcohol damages nearly all organ systems. It is also connected to higher death rates and is involved in a greater percentage of crime than most other drugs, including heroin.

But experts said it would be impractical and incorrect to outlaw alcohol.

"We cannot return to the days of prohibition," said Leslie King, an adviser to the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and one of the study's authors. "Alcohol is too embedded in our culture and it won't go away."

King said countries should target problem drinkers, not the vast majority of people who indulge in a drink or two. He said governments should consider more education programs and raising the price of alcohol so it isn't as widely available.

Experts said the study should prompt countries to reconsider how they classify drugs. For example, last year in Britain, the government increased its penalties for the possession of marijuana. One of its senior advisers, David Nutt - the lead author on the Lancet study - was fired after he criticized the British decision.

"What governments decide is illegal is not always based on science," said van den Brink. He said considerations about revenue and taxation, like those garnered from the alcohol and tobacco industries, may influence decisions about which substances to regulate or outlaw.

"Drugs that are legal cause at least as much damage, if not more, than drugs that are illicit," he said.

--------

Online:

TheLancet.com - Home Page
 
the stats that these people used are a little off, especially when talking about alcohol.

if they're just making a list of what vice causes the most damage to society as a whole, then yes, i imagine alcohol would rank much higher than everything else because it's much more readily available. but the insinuation that alcohol is as bad or worse than heroin or crack is a little much.
 
An inquest in Cork has been told how a 19-year-old student died after he drank what was described as a lethal amount of alcohol.

The coroner's court was told that paramedics could not resuscitate Gary Murphy from Palm Drive, Grantstown Village, Waterford, when they were called to his apartment by friends with whom he had been drinking.

He drank around half a litre of vodka in total, in addition to the beer he had drunk earlier.

He became drunk, and fell on a coffee table in the apartment and on the concrete floor of the balcony outside.

He was asleep on a couch when some of his friends removed his clothes.

He was put into an elevator naked and sent up a number of floors before the elevator returned. He was then put to bed. Two more friends then shaved off one of his eyebrows.

Minutes later one of his friends noticed that Mr Murphy's lips had turned blue.

With friends like these, etc.




Student died after heavy drinking session - RT News
 
^ Once, when staying at a hostel in Barcelona, I was awakened in the middle of the night by the loud, protracted retching of some American guy in the men's bathroom, which was right across the--what do you call those? the chutes at the center of so many European buildings--from the dorm I was in. I listened with growing alarm as his clearly too-drunk-to-give-a-fuck 'buddies' made a few feeble gestures at helping him--"c'mon Mahk...haaave sohhme wadda undh lesss go do behhhd..." before giving up, leaving him to continue to puke his guts out. I finally stormed down to the lobby and called for an ambulance myself. It turned out he almost died of alcohol poisoning.

This was the thing that most disturbed me about the 'youth drinking culture' when I was in college--the way all that natural, underlying protectiveness we usually feel towards friends and peers, looking out for one another even as you party and have fun, just falls away, and gets replaced by what might appear to be a shocking level of sadism and callousness if you didn't recognize the drunkenness.
 
In some ways I'm amazed me or none of my friends has ever got alcohol poisoning. I think it's basically because with us it's mainly slow, steady (and yet excessive) beer or wine drinking over prolonged periods of time and we've never really been into things like chugging vodka or anything like that even in our younger and more reckless days.
 
Horrible stories. I can't imagine just abandoning people like that or playing stupid games with them. Unfortunately, though, when a big group of people are completely plastered, things like rational thought and decency and concern for others generally tend to go out the window.

I've never been into the idea of getting drunk, either. At most I've gotten lightly buzzed, and that's all the farther I want to go. I get headaches often enough as it is, why do something that would just increase the chances of that happening? Why do something that you know full well will leave you getting sick all night? I don't understand the appeal. Especially when you add in the asshole behavior that often accompanies extreme drinking.

Angela
 
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