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Old 07-08-2013, 01:39 PM   #271
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If you seriously believe this, then your idea of what goes on at an abortion clinic is terribly skewed. I'm not sure how anyone can carry on a reasonable debate with you past this point.
You might as well cite Hannibal Lecter as a fine example of a psychiatrist. Or John Wayne Gacy as a reason the clown industry needs better safety guidelines
I have mentioned four abortion providers who have been under serious investigation over the past five years alone. These are not fictional characters; these are matters of record and fact. These are just the ones we know of. When challenged, I have provided statistics and information to back up my perspective. I am not saying the perspective of others are wrong; my point has been to show that these matters are complicated, that middle ground must be sought, and that higher regulations are not necessarily the enemy of women's health. If you still believe I'm being unreasonable after a discussion that has been robust but not (IMHO) unfruitful, I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps there is nothing left to say at this point, and maybe it's best to put the thread to rest for a while.

FWIW: I do indeed believe the clown industry needs better regulations. That's because they terrify me. :-)
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:44 PM   #272
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Are you at all familiar with how many physicians and surgeons are under investigation in any given year?

If you believe that FOUR in the last country that "we know of" is high, you are being ridiculous.

How many plastic surgeons? How many obstetricians who are implanting too many embryos? How many pathologists who have made questionable calls that landed people in jail? I have friends who litigate this stuff and again, if you think four in five years is "not the exception", you are FLAT OUT WRONG.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:50 PM   #273
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If you believe that FOUR in the last country that "we know of" is high, you are being ridiculous.
How many illegal abortions in a given year would you be comfortable with?

Again, we are free to disagree on the number. And if there's nothing left to say on this subject that will be productive, then there is nothing left to say. I believe the points I've raised and questions I've asked are not unreasonable, but are representative of the way a majority of people feel in this country about this issue, and have the same legitimacy as those who disagree.

You, as always, remain free to hold a different view of me.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:58 PM   #274
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Obviously much much fewer than you are, since you are in favor of limiting access to legal abortions. You do realize, this will force women into illegal abortions right? T
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:03 PM   #275
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Obviously much much fewer than you are, since you are in favor of limiting access to legal abortions. You do realize, this will force women into illegal abortions right? T


not to mention that reducing the number of available clinics turns a 3-week pregnancy into a 4-week, an 8-week, a 12-week, etc.
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:08 PM   #276
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Obviously much much fewer than you are, since you are in favor of limiting access to legal abortions. You do realize, this will force women into illegal abortions right? T
Has there been a rise in the number of illegal abortions in PA since 2011, when they raised their standards?

As I have said, PP is always free to use some of their profits to raise the standards of the clinics they operate. Is it unreasonable to suggest that they do so?
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I have mentioned four abortion providers who have been under serious investigation over the past five years alone. These are not fictional characters; these are matters of record and fact. These are just the ones we know of. When challenged, I have provided statistics and information to back up my perspective. I am not saying the perspective of others are wrong; my point has been to show that these matters are complicated, that middle ground must be sought, and that higher regulations are not necessarily the enemy of women's health. If you still believe I'm being unreasonable after a discussion that has been robust but not (IMHO) unfruitful, I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps there is nothing left to say at this point, and maybe it's best to put the thread to rest for a while.

FWIW: I do indeed believe the clown industry needs better regulations. That's because they terrify me. :-)

Would you not agree that bringing crooked doctor/psychopaths into the equation cheapens your argument? Is it not the same as when people cite freakishly rare shooting sprees as a reason for additional gun control?

I can't argue with you on your last point. Just writing about it gave me chills down my spine
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:18 PM   #278
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Would you not agree that bringing crooked doctor/psychopaths into the equation cheapens your argument?
I think it underlines my argument, especially once certain patterns start to emerge. The way that bombings in the Middle East underline some of the issues you have with radicalized religion. And I can't disagree with you (though we may disagree on how best to address those situations).

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I can't argue with you on your last point. Just writing about it gave me chills down my spine
Clowns are a real problem that we have only begun to get serious about as a culture. One day. ;-)
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:50 PM   #279
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Has there been a rise in the number of illegal abortions in PA since 2011, when they raised their standards?

As I have said, PP is always free to use some of their profits to raise the standards of the clinics they operate. Is it unreasonable to suggest that they do so?
You keep making a correlation between these two, but there isn't one. Gosnell was practicing illegally under EVERY state and federal standard or regulation. So raising them would not have changed one thing in his case.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:21 PM   #280
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You keep making a correlation between these two, but there isn't one. Gosnell was practicing illegally under EVERY state and federal standard or regulation. So raising them would not have changed one thing in his case.
The argument was made that raising standards in TX would lead to permanently-closed clinics and more illegal abortions. My question was whether raising standards in PA led to the same result.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:15 AM   #281
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My question was whether raising standards in PA led to the same result.
We wont know yet, but probably.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:50 AM   #282
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The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists has issued the following (and published it in some Texas papers as well).

http://images.magnetmail.net/images/...AdvocacyAd.pdf

Some choice quotes - but surely people like nathan know better than medical professionals.

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While we can agree to disagree about abortion on ideological grounds, we must draw a hard line against insidious legislation that threatens women's health like Texas NB2 and SB1. That's why we're speaking to the false and misleading underlying assumptions of this and other legislation like it: These bills are as much about interfering with the practice of medicine and the relationship a patient has with her physician as they are about restricting women's access to abortion. The fact is that these bills will not help protect the health of any woman in Texas. Instead, these bills will harm women's health in very clear ways.

...

Truth be told, the scientific underpinnings of this legislation are unsound. First, there's the 20-week ban, which is based on the argument that a fetus can feel pain. Recent and rigorous scientific reviews have concluded that there is no evidence of fetal perception of pain until 29 weeks at the earliest.

These bills would also impose a number of requirements for abortion facilities that are touted as necessary to ensure the health of the woman, but are, in fact, unnecessary and unsupported by scientific evidence. These proposed requirements, concerning door width and other irrelevant issues would only make it extremely difficult or impossible for most clinics, including clinics that primarily provide important non-abortion well-woman health care services such as mammograms and prenatal care to low-income women, to stay open. For example, the bills would require physicians who perform abortions to have admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles and allow abortions only in clinics that meet surgical clinic standards, imposing government regulations on abortion care that are much stricter than for colonoscopy and other similar low-risk procedures. The fact is that abortion is one of the safest medical procedures, with minimal - less than 0.5% - risk of major complications that might need hospital care.

...

ACOG opposes Texas HB2 and SB1, which jeopardize women's health care and interfere with medical practice and patient-physician relationships.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:12 PM   #283
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Sarah Slamen intended to talk about the benefits of the Texas bill. But she made her true voice known today. Too bad she had to be escorted out of the state Senate for practicing her 1st amendment rights.

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Here's the bit of Slamen's testimony that apparently upset state Sen. Jane Nelson (R), who was overseeing the proceedings:
"Thank you for being you, Texas legislature. You have radicalized hundreds of thousands of us, and no matter what you do for the next 22 days, women and their allies are coming for you," Slamen said. "Let’s start down the line. Senator Campbell, you’re an ophthalmologist. So I won’t be making you the expert on reproductive health. We can give you all the children with chlamydia and herpes in their eyes, since we don’t have Sex Ed in this state."
Nelson slammed her gavel and accused Slamen of being disrespectful. Slamen shot back, "Excuse me, this is my government, ma'am. I will judge you."
As the state troopers began to drag her out of the room, Slamen left with some parting words.
"This is a farce. The Texas legislature is a bunch of liars who hate women," she said
Sarah Slamen, Texas Woman, Dragged Out Of Senate Amid Fiery Testimony Against Abortion Bill

I'm at work so I can't view or post any video of this.

But I support Slamen for telling it like it is. That took guts many Americans seem to be afraid to use.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:35 PM   #284
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Meanwhile, sheer lunacy in North Carolina where the Republican Governor said he would veto the abortion bill being rammed through the Senate there. Not to be outdone, the House Republicans in the state have their own ditty.

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Gov. Pat McCrory on Wednesday morning announced he will veto the controversial abortion bill unless changes are made.

“Unless significant changes and clarifications are made addressing our concerns that were clearly communicated by DHHS Secretary Aldona Wos, Gov. Pat McCrory will veto the existing bill, HB 695, if it is passed by the House and Senate,” said a statement issued by the governor’s office. “The governor would like to thank those members of the legislature who have been working with the administration to ensure that the bill’s goals and objectives are clearly to protect the health and safety of women. The governor believes that major portions of the bill are of sound principal and value.”

McCrory’s statement concluded by urging lawmakers to return to the task of improving the state’s economy.
You think that might be a better use of time?

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Meanwhile, House Republicans – acting without public notice – began discussing their own abortion bill Wednesday, after taking a bill about motorcycle safety and inserted abortion language.
Nice and transparent!

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...tion-bill.html
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:57 PM   #285
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Here's the video of Slamen being escorted out for exercising her right as an American:

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