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Old 07-07-2013, 01:12 PM   #256
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The first step after you believe you may be pregnant -- and taking an EPT which can generate false positives -- is to go to a doctor who can confirm whether or not you are indeed pregnant. This is neither invasive nor unnecessary, but rather a crucial step in determining whether you are actually pregnant.

Do you believe otherwise? Or do you believe that the best choice is the least informed one?
I agree with Jive. Mandatory ultrasounds before an actual abortion is a just a way for anti-abortionists to rub their noses into this.

Women who intend on having an abortion know full well that they are not in the emotional and/or financial state to bring a child into this world. Some of them have lousy boyfriends and if they were to go through the pregnancy, that boyfriend would still be present in their lives. Like I said once before, pregnancy involves two people: the mother and the child. And sometimes both are not on the same page, and that is when abortion must be considered. It is unfortunate, but who said life was easy or even fair?
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:02 PM   #257
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It seems emotional abuse isn't a part of our women's health concerns.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:56 PM   #258
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Is there an issue with women going in for abortions only to find out they weren't pregnant to begin with? I've never heard of that. Or is this an attempt by pro-lifers (fuck, I hate that term) to rub their noses in it?
Abortion is a form of outpatient surgery. Yes?
Before you have a surgery (dental, dermatological, etc.), you have an initial exam for the doctor to evaluate you. Yes?
Should abortion be any different?

Even an EPT box tells you to go to an OB/GYN or consult with your doctor to confirm your pregnancy, for pity's sake. A standard aspect of that exam is an ultrasound. It is neither excessive, unnecessary, nor emotionally abusive. Arguing that it is, flies in the face of common medical practice, and is an overreach that even PP -- with all its vague assertions and implications -- refuses to back up.
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:26 PM   #259
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Abortion is a form of outpatient surgery. Yes?
Before you have a surgery (dental, dermatological, etc.), you have an initial exam for the doctor to evaluate you. Yes?
Should abortion be any different?

Even an EPT box tells you to go to an OB/GYN pr consult with your doctor to confirm your pregnancy, for pity's sake. A standard aspect of that exam is an ultrasound. It is neither excessive, unnecessary, nor emotionally abusive. Arguing that it is, flies in the face of common medical practice, and is an overreach that even PP -- with all its vague assertions and implications -- refuses to back up.


What do the doctors say? We've heard your opinion and what you believe to be sound medical practice.

It would be nice to hear from someone with an actual background in medicine.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:33 PM   #260
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Abortion is a form of outpatient surgery. Yes?
In the majority of situations, no. The most common method of abortion is medical.

BTW, have we established yet if the Wisconsin and North Carolina anti-abortion laws require a transvaginal ultrasound or not. I mean, if you want to harass a woman who wants to have an abortion, you do need to harass her well.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:34 PM   #261
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Even an EPT box tells you to go to an OB/GYN or consult with your doctor to confirm your pregnancy, for pity's sake. A standard aspect of that exam is an ultrasound. It is neither excessive, unnecessary, nor emotionally abusive.
It's NOT a standard aspect for anyone I've known (and certainly not at one of our best fertility clinics, where I attended). The standard means to confirm a pregnancy following a + HPT is a blood test for HCG serum levels (which must be over 25 mIU for a positive). As I said, the gestational sac does not form as soon as the HCG rises in the blood serum (produced by the early form of the placenta) and therefore the ultrasound would see nothing.

Moreover, if you have an ultrasound of you uterus, and I've probably had more than anyone here, including women who were pregnant several times (no joke), there is NO NEED for you as a patient to stare at the screen and be described exactly what is being seen. Moreover, it is also not necessary for a medical doctor to run the actual ultrasound - a tech is more than sufficient. I was never forced to look at any of the tumors on the ultrasound and believe me, I understood quite well that they were there.

This is all to say nothing of transvaginal ultrasounds which are intrusive and uncomfortable and entirely medically unnecessary.

I also ask, who is paying for these medical procedures? The taxpayers?
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:58 PM   #262
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It's NOT a standard aspect for anyone I've known
We had ultrasounds for all four, as soon as we were pregnant. And I can say that each time we had someone there to explain to us exactly what we were seeing, especially since the first time we were six weeks pregnant and had no idea what we were looking at. (It's tricky for those of us who aren't medical professionals.)

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As I said, the gestational sac does not form as soon as the HCG rises in the blood serum (produced by the early form of the placenta) and therefore the ultrasound would see nothing.
This may be true in the very early stages of pregnancy, but 40% of abortions take place after the tenth week, at which point not only has the sac formed, but the heart has begun pumping (in week six). And I can certainly testify that whatever you can't see at two weeks, you sure do at eight, ten or twelve.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:47 AM   #263
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This may be true in the very early stages of pregnancy, but 40% of abortions take place after the tenth week, at which point not only has the sac formed, but the heart has begun pumping (in week six). And I can certainly testify that whatever you can't see at two weeks, you sure do at eight, ten or twelve.
But if the sole purpose of the ultrasound in the bill is to confirm pregnancy, none of that still makes it a necessary procedure.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:03 AM   #264
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But if the sole purpose of the ultrasound in the bill is to confirm pregnancy, none of that still makes it a necessary procedure.
Except that the difference between aborting a four week old sac and a twelve or fourteen week old baby is substantial, from both a procedural perspective as well as a physical one. And given that some abortion providers have a history of lying to their patients about the ages of the babies growing inside them (Gosnell had a habit of lying to women about whether they were in the third trimester or not), a second -- and more objective -- opinion seems like a wise one.

Additionally -- I hope we can agree that the best choice is the most informed one. There are numerous stories of women who wanted an abortion and then changed their minds when they heard a heartbeat, saw the ultrasound, etc. Is that choice any less legitimate than the choice to abort? Should the option to change their mind not be afforded them?
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:01 PM   #265
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Gosnell had a habit of lying to women about whether they were in the third trimester or not
Let's not use Gosnell as an example of an abortion doctor
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:33 PM   #266
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This isn't about abortion, but it does relate to women not being allowed to have dominion over their bodies:

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Some inmates who spoke with the Center for Investigative Reporting said they were coerced by doctors into getting tubal ligation surgeries. The procedures allegedly took place between 2006 and 2010 at the California Institution for Women in Corona and Valley State Prison for Women in Chowchilla, which is now a men's prison, according to CIR.
Doctors conducted the surgeries "without required state approvals," and inmates and prison advocates said they were aimed at pregnant prisoners who were "deemed likely to return to prison in the future," CIR found.
Dr. James Heinrich defended the operations: In an interview with CIR, Heinrich said he provided an important service to poor women who faced health risks in future pregnancies because of past Caesarean sections. The 69-year-old Bay Area physician denied pressuring anyone.
Jezebel's Laura Beck reacted with outrage, saying, "Another day, another step toward living in an even more twisted version of The Handmaid's Tale."
Writing for Politicususa.com, Jason Easley said the report offers proof that "forced or coerced sterilizations aren’t something that just happen in other countries. They are happening in the United States of America."
Female Inmates Sterilized Illegally In California Prisons: Report
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:46 PM   #267
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Let's not use Gosnell as an example of an abortion doctor
Was he not in fact an abortion provider who operated for decades despite numerous complaints filed against him?

We could always use the other doctors I've mentioned.

He's not the rule, but he is sadly not the exception either.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:08 PM   #268
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He's not the rule, but he is sadly not the exception either.
Yes he is. Don't be ridiculous.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:14 PM   #269
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And I can say that each time we had someone there to explain to us exactly what we were seeing, especially since the first time we were six weeks pregnant and had no idea what we were looking at. (It's tricky for those of us who aren't medical professionals.)
Of course you did. You and your wife presented as a couple who was very much committed and interested in having a baby.

Let's consider some other examples:

What about a couple who have had a couple of children born and die with a very serious genetic defect that is passed on and they decide that they no longer want to try to have children since the risk of them passing the gene on is too high. But they get pregnant accidentally. They don't wish to have another child die and their decision is made. Why should that poor woman be forced to stare at the screen and be described, in great detail, how the embryo is developing while somebody shoves an 8 inch transvaginal probe up her vagina?

What about a drug addict who is high as a kite most days and knows she can't/won't kick the habit and doesn't want to have the baby?

Or a young 17-year-old honor roll kid who gets pregnant accidentally but doesn't have a supporting family and wants to have an abortion so that she can take advantage of that full scholarship at a top university and go to med school like she's always planned?

Or a woman who was raped after a bar one night, or a teenager who was raped by her uncle who had been molesting her for years?

The more you write, the less I think we agree. You want to badger these women whose stories you know nothing about. And please don't tell me that this is about informed consent because no court that I am aware of has ruled that for informed consent you need to have a transvaginal probe up your vagina and you need to be forced to look at the ultrasound screen and listen to a narrative. If that was the case, half the medical procedures in the country would be performed without informed consent.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:14 PM   #270
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He's not the rule, but he is sadly not the exception either.
If you seriously believe this, then your idea of what goes on at an abortion clinic is terribly skewed. I'm not sure how anyone can carry on a reasonable debate with you past this point.
You might as well cite Hannibal Lecter as a fine example of a psychiatrist. Or John Wayne Gacy as a reason the clown industry needs better safety guidelines
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