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Old 07-04-2013, 04:04 PM   #226
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Of course. Can you see why many people -- men and women -- are passionately concerned about this issue on the other side?

Of course.

Can we admit now that what's going on in TX is not about women's health and entirely about reducing the aggregate number of abortions -- and achieving bragging rights for the base for the '14 midterms -- by hook or by crook?
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:06 PM   #227
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by hook or by crook?
An unpleasant, yet apt, image for this topic.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:02 PM   #228
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Of course.

Can we admit now that what's going on in TX is not about women's health and entirely about reducing the aggregate number of abortions -- and achieving bragging rights for the base for the '14 midterms -- by hook or by crook?
Was that the motivation in PA?

Do I believe there is a political bent to this issue? Sure. Do I believe it's representative of the tension that exists in the country? Sure. Do I believe that, according to statistics, the majority of Americans seem to want more restrictions and regulations on abortion, to maintain the health and safety of those seeking abortions as well as for the unborn babies that may be at risk due to the actions of butchers like Karpen and Gosnell, while at the same time protecting a woman's right to choose? Sure. Do I believe that the majority of Americans, in wanting to do so, are waging a war against women, or are pawns in a diabolical GOP-led plot to force women into back-alley abortions? No. I do not.

If you do, then we should probably just stop talking in circles and lay this thread to rest, because we aren't going to get anywhere.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:13 PM   #229
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Was that the motivation in PA?

Do I believe there is a political bent to this issue? Sure. Do I relieve it's representative of the tension that exists in the country? Sure. Do I believe that, according to statistics, the majority of Americans seem to want more restrictions and regulations on abortion, to maintain the health and safety of those seeking abortions as well as for the unborn babies that may be at risk due to the actions of butchers like Karpen and Gosnell, while protecting a woman's right to choose? Sure. Do I believe that the majority of Americans, in wanting to do so, are waging a war against women, or are pawns in a diabolical GOP-led plot to force women into back-alley abortions? No. I do not.

If you do, then we should probably just stop talking in circles and lay this thread to rest, because we aren't going to get anywhere.


Restrictions and regulations on abortions themselves, yes, that's what it's about.

You've extrapolated far beyond my question, just as this legislation has intentions far beyond keeping women safe.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:37 PM   #230
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You've extrapolated far beyond my question
Well, you've made a lot of comments and insinuations -- or outright accusations -- about me and my motives and perspective in the course of this conversation. So I just thought I'd address a bunch of them all at once. :-)
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:43 PM   #231
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Well, you've made a lot of comments and insinuations -- or outright accusations -- about me and my motives and perspective in the course of this conversation. So I just thought I'd address a bunch of them all at once. :-)

I think we've revealed them?
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:57 PM   #232
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I think we've revealed them?
Sure. I'm right about in the middle of how the majority of Americans feel about this issue. I'm struggling with how to address it -- with the balancing act of ethical considerations, women's health, a woman's legally protected right to choose, and health standards and regulations that have been problematic (or outright ignored) by clinics in more than one state -- but pretty sure that a hard-line one way or the other isn't the answer. Right where I was when I came into this conversation.

So...Congratulations, I guess?
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:09 PM   #233
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I feel satisfied that we better understand what's going on in TX as well as the obsession with the Gosnell case and that neither are about safety but the manipulation if "safety" to further an agenda.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:09 PM   #234
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Sure. I'm right about in the middle of how the majority of Americans feel about this issue.
I think it's very difficult to really ascertain how most Americans feel about the issue so long as it is in the abstract. If abortion were banned or constructively banned (which is the intended effect of most of these legislative proposals from the GOP), would opinions change? Would there be a case of buyer's remorse if suddenly there was no access? If politicians' daughters couldn't get an abortion, and so on?

When you say "safe, legal and rare" I think that we have a different idea of how to achieve the "rare" bit. To me, it has to do with comprehensive sex education in public school (something the GOP is against), cheap and accessible birth control (again, something the GOP is against and let's not forget Limbaugh's assault on "sluts" on birth control), funding clinics like Planned Parenthood so that poor women and scared teenagers whose parents have buried their heads in the sand like ostriches and are shoving abstinence down the throats of girls who are sexually active (again, something the GOP wants to de-fund, and they've already done that in Texas only to have buyer's remorse now that the costs are high so they are looking to re-fund PP to at least some degree), etc. These are all things that the conservatives are by and large against. To them, rare means shutting down clinics, imposing regulations that are unnecessary, forcing intrusive transvaginal ultrasounds for no medical reason whatsoever because they want to guilt and bully pregnant women and so on.

So when you say "safe, legal and rare" and I agree, I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:14 PM   #235
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Would there be a case of buyer's remorse if suddenly there was no access? I
You could ask South Dakotans about that.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:53 PM   #236
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Was that the motivation in PA?
Well. I guess we have confirmed that he has put me on ignore.

The ignore button might be the worst invention on this forum. Ignoring ideas is a shitty way to go about a debate.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:59 PM   #237
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You could ask South Dakotans about that.
Oh yes, those were the geniuses who re-defined pregnancy as beginning at conception, a completely scientifically absurd idea.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:03 PM   #238
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I thought that was North Dakota? Or have both Dakota gone to hell?
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:19 PM   #239
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Oh yes, those were the geniuses who re-defined pregnancy as beginning at conception, a completely scientifically absurd idea.

And then they backtracked on the law, if I remember correctly.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:25 PM   #240
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The voters voted it down in a referendum. Turns out an abortion ban wasn't the utopia they thought it would be.
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