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Old 07-03-2013, 05:49 PM   #211
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I am so glad they had a choice in the matter. That's really the essence of my pro-choice views. People should behave in accordance with their own situations, not with what the rest of us think is ideal.
Yes. Or what random state legislators think is ideal.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:54 PM   #212
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Wait a minute - these clinics, as far as I'm aware, already are complying with all the current standards. It strikes me as disingenuous to imply there is a lack of compliance when the proposed new standards don't even pass muster with the relevant professional organizations in the medical community.
Health standards are constantly changing. I know that I would be concerned with going to any clinic that was compliant with decade or two-decade-old standards. So I don't see changing standards, on principle, to be onerous. And it's clear from the legal investigation into Karpen that there is a regulation problem in TX as there was with Gosnell in PA, which in turn led to their higher standards (without much of an apparent public outcry.)

I'm not trying to be purposefully obtuse -- there are intense political pressures on both sides of this issue. I'm just wondering if there is a way to appease both sides, or if the political pressure has overshadowed the issue. Or if, at this point, the pressure *is* the issue. As nbcrusader pointed out, there's a lot of money to be made when you can demonize your opponent.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:56 PM   #213
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No wait, that would make us more or less the same. . . :what's the smilie for duh again?:
I have no idea, but I wish they had one. I would use it a lot. :-)
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:57 PM   #214
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This word comes up a lot when a certain poster is involved. In fact, before Sean used it, I was thinking it as well.
I don't think Nathan is being intentionally disingenuous, if that's what your getting at. I believe Nathan when he says he's trying to be a realist and find common ground, but we all come to the table with our own agendas, common ground or no.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:04 PM   #215
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I don't think Nathan is being intentionally disingenuous, if that's what your getting at. I believe Nathan when he says he's trying to be a realist and find common ground, but we all come to the table with our own agendas, common ground or no.
I realize that, but I'm doing my best. I credit FYM with broadening my perspective over the years -- otherwise I wouldn't drop in from time to time. I understand that my posts can sometimes come across as having a superior tone -- perhaps I'm only trying to match the moral superiority that certain posters use with their own posts. Just because we think a thing, does not always make it so. I am reminded of that constantly -- here and elsewhere.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:09 PM   #216
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Health standards are constantly changing. I know that I would be concerned with going to any clinic that was compliant with decade or two-decade-old standards. So I don't see changing standards, on principle, to be onerous. And it's clear from the legal investigation into Karpen that there is a regulation problem in TX as there was with Gosnell in PA, which in turn led to their higher standards (without much of an apparent public outcry.)

I'm not trying to be purposefully obtuse -- there are intense political pressures on both sides of this issue. I'm just wondering if there is a way to appease both sides, or if the political pressure has overshadowed the issue. Or if, at this point, the pressure *is* the issue. As nbcrusader pointed out, there's a lot of money to be made when you can demonize your opponent.
Did you even read my post?

No medical groups anywhere proposed making these changes. It was purely political. Are you having trouble understanding this?
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:22 PM   #217
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Health standards are constantly changing. I know that I would be concerned with going to any clinic that was compliant with decade or two-decade-old standards. So I don't see changing standards, on principle, to be onerous.
If this was truly about the health of the patients then why is there not a push to increase ALL clinics to level of surgical centers?

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And it's clear from the legal investigation into Karpen that there is a regulation problem in TX as there was with Gosnell in PA, which in turn led to their higher standards (without much of an apparent public outcry.)
I think you are confusing two issues here. Gosnell and Karpen didn't exist because of regulation or standard issues with the clinics, they existed due to the fact that the state not being able to choosing not to police their existing standards.

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I'm not trying to be purposefully obtuse -- there are intense political pressures on both sides of this issue. I'm just wondering if there is a way to appease both sides, or if the political pressure has overshadowed the issue.
The answer to this is REAL EASY. You say, OK if you're really concerned about the health of these women than let's let the medical experts and not politicians assess and redevelop if need be the standards of these clinics. But we all know the answer to that, don't we?
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:11 PM   #218
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You say, OK if you're really concerned about the health of these women than let's let the medical experts and not politicians assess and redevelop if need be the standards of these clinics. But we all know the answer to that, don't we?
I guess I don't see things as clearly as you, in part because of the dual forces at play in terms of my convictions. There are legal ramifications at play here which means that legislators have a responsibility to discern the best way to form laws, and it's a challenge to divorce the issues from the political forces at play.

And of course there are political forces at play --on both sides. PP is no less a political force than Operation Rescue, and they are certainly working hard to stand with Wendy.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:29 PM   #219
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I guess I don't see things as clearly as you, in part because of the dual forces at play in terms of my convictions. There are legal ramifications at play here which means that legislators have a responsibility to discern the best way to form laws, and it's a challenge to divorce the issues from the political forces at play.

And of course there are political forces at play --on both sides. PP is no less a political force than Operation Rescue, and they are certainly working hard to stand with Wendy.
I probably see things a little more clearly as you because I'm not as married to one side or the other. I also once worked in the medical field, and I know the different regulations as to what defines a practice vs a clinic vs a surgical center vs a hospital and what can and cannot take place at each.

I also see that there is no concern about other clinics that perform riskier procedures, and there is no need or want to make them upgrade to a surgical center. This alone should be obvious to you and other supporters who are claiming health reasons.

I think legislators have an obligation to consult with experts, they did not for this politically overreaching move.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:33 PM   #220
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I also see that there is no concern about other clinics that perform riskier procedures, and there is no need or want to make them upgrade to a surgical center.
Please see my earlier comment regarding the fact that those other centers do not potentially put two lives at risk, depending on how we're defining life. I have also yet to see dermatologist's offices or dentist's offices that have been deemed "houses of horrors." TX legislators expressed concern about the safety of these centers and this procedure, and given what else is happening in their state and others, I don't find that concern unwarranted.

Legislators in PA put higher standards into place; I don't think TX deserves less.

IMHO.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:22 AM   #221
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Please see my earlier comment regarding the fact that those other centers do not potentially put two lives at risk, depending on how we're defining life.
Sure they do. Where have you been? They deal with emergency issues all the time in clinics. Go to your local emergency clinic and ask them what they deal with, and then ask them if they have the same building standards as a surgical center.


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I have also yet to see dermatologist's offices or dentist's offices that have been deemed "houses of horrors."
Well it may have not made national news yet, but it sure has made local news but a dermatologist here in TX just got sentenced for sexual assault and unwarranted procedures. More than 2 dozen women in 30 years came forward. It's resulted in 3 suicides so far. Once again, nothing to do with the standards as far as equipment and building code, but if the state were policing their doctors correctly this could have been taken care of years ago, the first complaint was in 1986.

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TX legislators expressed concern about the safety of these centers and this procedure, and given what else is happening in their state and others, I don't find that concern unwarranted.

Legislators in PA put higher standards into place; I don't think TX deserves less.

IMHO.
Then Nathan, be honest with your elected officials and tell them they need to focus their concern on policing those who practice medicine first. Ask Perry how it is he allowed unlicensed "doctors" to perform butcher sessions under his watch? This law wouldn't have changed that.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:07 AM   #222
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Well it may have not made national news yet, but it sure has made local news but a dermatologist here in TX just got sentenced for sexual assault and unwarranted procedures. More than 2 dozen women in 30 years came forward. It's resulted in 3 suicides so far. Once again, nothing to do with the standards as far as equipment and building code, but if the state were policing their doctors correctly this could have been taken care of years ago, the first complaint was in 1986.
Ugh. That's horrible and heartbreaking.

I don't think it's a secret to anyone that women's health care in this country is lackluster at a variety of levels. My aunt fought for years to get her fibromyalgia recognized by her health insurance. My wife has been appalled for years by the sometimes blatant sexism that she's received from health care providers -- part of why she's resorted to naturopathy. So I guess we all have to address what concerns we have about different aspects of women's health as best we can. At your recommendation, I just sent an email to Gov. Perry's office expressing my disappointment at this situation. Thanks for flagging it for me.

In the meantime, driving home tonight I heard a report on NPR that around 60% of Americans polled fluctuate between pro-choice with restrictions and pro-life with exceptions. I felt like it described how I feel most days. Made me feel like maybe the conversation we're having here is representative of the country as a whole.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:20 PM   #223
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Yes, Women's healthcare in this country has been substandard. And yet, Republicans througout this country are still trying to make it worse. The growing trend of requiring transvaginal ultrasounds before an abortion can be performed makes me sick.

As others have written in this thread, the TX law is just another attempt to limit access to health care which may include abortions for the women of Texas. You know that "abortion clinics" also provide other healthcare, for which there is usually no or a very small charge. These clinics will now no longer be able to provide that healthcare because legislators who don't even know what a freaking rape kit does think they know better than doctors.

You can see why many women are upset right?
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:22 PM   #224
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Legislators in PA put higher standards into place
My state is insanely corrupted by GOP politics. This means nothing.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:36 PM   #225
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You can see why many women are upset right?
Of course. Can you see why many people -- men and women -- are passionately concerned about this issue on the other side?
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