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Old 07-03-2013, 02:27 PM   #196
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I can also certainly recognize that the Akins of the world are idiots; so can voters, who turned those loons out of office pretty quickly, and good for them.
The thing is, disassociating yourself from Akins is one thing, but many anti-choice people like to think they make an exception in rape cases. The problem is that none of them can spell out exactly how that would work.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:29 PM   #197
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I think many pro-choice people understand the awfulness of abortion because we know people who've gone though it and how agonizing it was for them. I think that if many "pro-life" people knew how many of their acquaintances had gone through it, they'd be a little more understanding.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:32 PM   #198
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How can one be a pro-choice extremist?
Alisha Snow's testimony might qualify her?

http://m.weeklystandard.com/blogs/vi...on_712198.html
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:36 PM   #199
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I think many pro-choice people understand the awfulness of abortion because we know people who've gone though it and how agonizing it was for them. I think that if many "pro-life" people knew how many of their acquaintances had gone through it, they'd be a little more understanding.
I agree that the power of relationships and experiences can change hearts and minds. This goes both ways, too -- Norma McCorvey being a prominent example.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:37 PM   #200
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When I was talking extremists I wasn't even talking about the people that go the extremes like Martha mentioned. I was talking about the people who brook no compromise of any sort and view the other side as "baby killers" or "woman haters."

Ok, that's fair.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:48 PM   #201
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Maybe.

But then maybe not. The way it's framed, sure that sounds like crazy talk. But if you read carefully, it's clear to me that Snow is not just saying," look just kill it. That's what they were trying to do, so go ahead and finish the job."

In a situation like that there may be many extenuating circumstances that might complicate the issue, including the viability of the baby (is the child going to last longer than a few minutes/hours/days anyway). What is the health of the child? Has it properly developed and will it continue to develop if placed under intensive preemie care? There are a lot of possibilities so maybe it's not so evil and heartless to suggest that the doctor and mother in question need to have the flexibility to make that decision. Doctors and parents already have that flexibility when dealing children that are born early that aren't the product of an unsuccessful abortion.

Personally, I would want a baby that survives an abortion to be given the chance to live. It could always be adopted (by a gay family even!) But I don't know that I'd want that enshrined into inflexible law.

I guess that makes me the opposite of Nathan. Privately pro-life, but publicly pro-choice?
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:52 PM   #202
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I agree that the power of relationships and experiences can change hearts and minds. This goes both ways, too -- Norma McCorvey being a prominent example.
True. Though I doubt her story will warm many hearts in here.

But, hey the point is that people can change their minds. I'm getting ready to do a blog on the topic of how we come to the point of changing our minds on major issues. I'll post a link when I get it done.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:59 PM   #203
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In a situation like that there may be many extenuating circumstances that might complicate the issue
I think that this is so important. Personal circumstances are just that, personal. They can never be fully understood by outsiders - not the facts, not the emotions involved or anything.

I had a host of medical procedures this past year, including two surgeries, one of which was minor (day) and one which was major and removed 15 benign tumors from my abdomen. Without boring people with details, I had to attend at one of North America's premier fertility centres to undergo scans and exams on several occasions. For me, this was not related to trying to get pregnant or anything like that - it's that they had specialized equipment and expertise which they could extend to me outside of the context of assisting me with pregnancy (or termination thereof). It was a bit of a strange experience because everyone else there whom I encountered in the various waiting rooms, recovery rooms, changing areas, etc was there either because they were desperate to have a baby and were spending tens of thousands of dollars to that end or because they were terminating. Keep in mind, the ones terminating were particularly tragic cases of women who had subjected themselves to months or maybe years of painful, intrusive and expensive fertility treatments only to experience heartbreaking loss down the line. You'd see their face and it's all you needed to know. And some of them were over 20 weeks (or so I'm assuming based on their size).

I am so glad they had a choice in the matter. That's really the essence of my pro-choice views. People should behave in accordance with their own situations, not with what the rest of us think is ideal.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:00 PM   #204
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That's a really wrenching position to be in. To me, doesn't it then behoove the clinics who want to provide this service to make sure that they're corresponding with all standards?

Again, the TX law would require the 38 non-compliant clinics to become as compliant as the 6 that would remain open.
But one of the issues here is that the aim of the TX legislation is not to make sure that clinics are compliant to some arbitrary standard (after investing maybe millions), but to make sure that all clinics will have to close as to make abortion impossible in TX. As the sponsors of the legislation have stated, it's not about providing a safe enough environment, but about changing goalposts in such a way until there's no official abortion.
Yes, 5 or 6 clinics may stay open for now. Until they find some other rule to have them closed for not meeting standards.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:18 PM   #205
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That's a really wrenching position to be in. To me, doesn't it then behoove the clinics who want to provide this service to make sure that they're corresponding with all standards?
Wait a minute - these clinics, as far as I'm aware, already are complying with all the current standards. It strikes me as disingenuous to imply there is a lack of compliance when the proposed new standards don't even pass muster with the relevant professional organizations in the medical community. It strikes me as even more disingenuous to vocalize compassion for those put in a tough spot by this legislation (that again, is viewed as unnecessary and ill advised by the majority of experts in the medical community), and then suggest the solution is for everyone to, essentially, comply and just deal with it. It gets right back to the argument of eliminating access.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:52 PM   #206
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I guess that makes me the opposite of Nathan. Privately pro-life, but publicly pro-choice?
No wait, that would make us more or less the same. . . :what's the smilie for duh again?:
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:04 PM   #207
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I think that this is so important. Personal circumstances are just that, personal. They can never be fully understood by outsiders - not the facts, not the emotions involved or anything.

I had a host of medical procedures this past year, including two surgeries, one of which was minor (day) and one which was major and removed 15 benign tumors from my abdomen. Without boring people with details, I had to attend at one of North America's premier fertility centres to undergo scans and exams on several occasions. For me, this was not related to trying to get pregnant or anything like that - it's that they had specialized equipment and expertise which they could extend to me outside of the context of assisting me with pregnancy (or termination thereof). It was a bit of a strange experience because everyone else there whom I encountered in the various waiting rooms, recovery rooms, changing areas, etc was there either because they were desperate to have a baby and were spending tens of thousands of dollars to that end or because they were terminating. Keep in mind, the ones terminating were particularly tragic cases of women who had subjected themselves to months or maybe years of painful, intrusive and expensive fertility treatments only to experience heartbreaking loss down the line. You'd see their face and it's all you needed to know. And some of them were over 20 weeks (or so I'm assuming based on their size).

I am so glad they had a choice in the matter. That's really the essence of my pro-choice views. People should behave in accordance with their own situations, not with what the rest of us think is ideal.
I really appreciate you sharing your experiences -- and for what it's worth, I'm sorry to hear about some of the procedures you've had to deal with and hope things are going better.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:29 PM   #208
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Thanks nathan. I'm a super fast healer and was back to running 3-4 miles within 4 weeks. Surgeon says I'm good as new.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:47 PM   #209
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disingenuous

This word comes up a lot when a certain poster is involved. In fact, before Sean used it, I was thinking it as well.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:49 PM   #210
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I agree that the power of relationships and experiences can change hearts and minds. This goes both ways, too -- Norma McCorvey being a prominent example.
But wanting something outlawed for everyone because you think you made the wrong CHOICE isn't always the way to go either, is it?
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