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Old 07-02-2013, 02:31 PM   #151
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Let's go with this line of thought - you are addressing 1% of cases.
21+ weeks, sure. Other statistics are that 4% of abortions are performed between 16-20 weeks. (And that's without considering the abortion-providers who are performing abortions illegally, or who are just not being investigated at all.) Do I think that 5% of abortions should require increased health standards? Do you think they shouldn't?
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:41 PM   #152
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Do I think that 5% of abortions should require increased health standards? Do you think they shouldn't?
I think they should require the standards that the licensed and in good standing ob/gyns who perform such procedures find to be adequate and reasonable. Since the Texas District of the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, supported also by the Texas Hospital Association, hold that the 38 clinics that would be forced to shut down are meeting the necessary health standards for the procedures carried out there, that's good enough for me.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:51 PM   #153
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I like how Nathan's anecdotes were all about those families choosing to continue the pregnancies, yet he's willing to deny any choice to other families.

Oh wait. No, he's not. He's just asking that the clinics be held to "standards" that will close them down and take choice away from most women.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:56 PM   #154
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I think they should require the standards that the licensed and in good standing ob/gyns who perform such procedures find to be adequate and reasonable. Since the Texas District of the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, supported also by the Texas Hospital Association, hold that the 38 clinics that would be forced to shut down are meeting the necessary health standards for the procedures carried out there, that's good enough for me.
Required to make upgrades does not equate to "forced to shut down".

I guess if there is a problem exacerbated by a lesser health & safety standards, the patient can always sue.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:57 PM   #155
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Oh wait. No, he's not. He's just asking that the clinics be held to "standards" that will close them down and take choice away from most women.
As nbcrusader pointed out, these clinics have the option to raise their standards or not. If they choose to comply, there's no problem. The burden of compliance is not on the women, but on those who want to profit from them. If those clinics choose not to comply, aren't they in fact the ones taking away choice from women by refusing to provide them services in a safe environment, as defined by the politicians who have been elected to look out for the interests of their constituents?
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:59 PM   #156
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As nbcrusader pointed out, these clinics have the option to raise their standards or not.
If the doctors that, you know, actually PERFORM these procedures in Texas don't think that the clinics need to raise their standards, who are you to say that they do?

Don't you think that an ob/gyn who carries the brunt of the medical malpractice risk would choose a prudent path?
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:04 PM   #157
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https://twitter.com/DavidHDewhurst/s...63442497302528
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We fought to pass SB5 thru the Senate last night, & this is why! #StandWithTXChildren #txlege pic.twitter.com/fJbQSJur7i
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:05 PM   #158
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If the doctors that, you know, actually PERFORM these procedures in Texas don't think that the clinics need to raise their standards, who are you to say that they do?
You're right. I suppose we could listen to this guy. He seems reputable.
Douglas Karpen: Second 'house of horrors' abortion clinic is investigated in Texas | Mail Online

And in any event, this argument is circular, since one could easily counter with the question that, if the lawmakers actually responsible for the health and well-being of their citizens think that the clinics need to raise their standards, who are you to say that they don't?
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:08 PM   #159
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You're right. I suppose we could listen to this guy. He seems reputable.
Great, you've found a lunatic (extra bonus points for linking to a story in what is one of Britain's worst rags).

Which means that the public opinion American Congress of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians doesn't matter.
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:10 PM   #160
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And in any event, this argument is circular, since one could easily counter with the question that, if the lawmakers actually responsible for the health and well-being of their citizens think that the clinics need to raise their standards, who are you to say that they don't?
Lawmakers who have correct intentions listen to the experts. Are you not familiar with how laws are generally drafted? There is input from expert communities on healthcare laws, just like there would be consultation with bar associations, with tax experts and practitioners if it were a tax act, etc.

Bringing us back to the point of what is the actual purpose here? You can continue to naively think that it's the health of women seeking abortions. The rest of us can read between the lines a bit better.
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:20 PM   #161
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in fairness, nathan has conceded that it isn't about women's health but on finding a "middle ground" on forcibly removing the actual number of abortions performed in Texas.

i'd rather we work on finding common ground when it comes to reducing the need for abortions, but that's much less emotional.
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:30 PM   #162
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Required to make upgrades does not equate to "forced to shut down".
These aren't upgrades like buy a new sterilization device and widen a door, they would have to provide new ventilation, hospital grade equipment, and more than likely lots of new construction. Upgrades that no other clinic or doctor's office will be held to in the entire country. If your child's preschool had to be upgraded to the standards of a state university they'd be forced to close their doors. We're forcing the standards of an apple onto an orange in order to eradicate the orange.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:29 PM   #163
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These aren't upgrades like buy a new sterilization device and widen a door, they would have to provide new ventilation, hospital grade equipment, and more than likely lots of new construction. Upgrades that no other clinic or doctor's office will be held to in the entire country. If your child's preschool had to be upgraded to the standards of a state university they'd be forced to close their doors. We're forcing the standards of an apple onto an orange in order to eradicate the orange.
Complying with the existing regulations for other out-patient surgery centers (Ambulatory Surgical Centers) is not a preschool to university leap.

The existing regulations are, as defined by statute, for the safety and welfare of patients. If a procedure is complicated or there is an emergency, I'm sure we'd all like to see the patient in the safest environment possible.

The cost of upgrades will eat into a clinic's profit margin, but that is something every business faces.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:32 PM   #164
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As nbcrusader pointed out, these clinics have the option to raise their standards or not. If they choose to comply, there's no problem. The burden of compliance is not on the women, but on those who want to profit from them. If those clinics choose not to comply, aren't they in fact the ones taking away choice from women by refusing to provide them services in a safe environment, as defined by the politicians who have been elected to look out for the interests of their constituents?
You are a snake-oil salesman and you always have been. You take the smooth-talking "middle ground" to disguise your intentions.

No one who is really concerned about women's health really thinks that limiting access to abortion will somehow keep women alive. The next internet search you make should be statistics for what was going on before Roe V. Wade made abortion actually safe and legal, not the kind of "safe and legal" you and Rick Perry hide behind. No amount of your smooth talk can fool anyone here.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:35 PM   #165
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Some incredibly dear friends of ours agonized through a nine-month pregnancy in order to hold their baby girl for 10 hours.

Other friends delivered twins at 30 weeks destined to live for 45 minutes.

Some other friends had a baby girl at 30 weeks and were told by their doctor to abort her. That was two years ago. She is a healthy, thriving baby now.

I don't believe in pitting one story against another. Let's figure out how to sort this out together.
Actually, you did. Since you didn't mention the condition of the last baby while she was in utero, we would have to assume that her condition wasn't as bad as not having a brain develop at all. That means these were two entirely different scenarios.

What worked for your friends doesn't work for others. Some people can't imagine carrying a pregnancy to term, only to deliver a child that won't live even 24 hours. Even to me, that sounds like an agony, and I hope to never be in that situation. Why should laws determine what is the right way to handle a devastating situation like that?
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