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Old 07-02-2013, 01:56 PM   #136
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And for nathan, from one of the bill's sponsors, Jodie Laubenberg, a ridiculous commentary on rape kits (she was the one who opposed a negotiated compromise, of which you are a great fan and which would have created exceptions for cases of rape):

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"In the emergency room they have what’s called rape kits, where a woman can get cleaned out," said state Rep. Jodie Laubenberg (R), sponsor of the controversial SB 5, according to The Associated Press. "The woman had five months to make that decision, at this point we are looking at a baby that is very far along in its development."
Nevermind that this is completely factually incorrect and that rape kits do not "clean out" (nice euphemism) anything...but it goes to show you exactly what sorts of motivations these people have. No, it's not about a woman's right to choose at all.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:58 PM   #137
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Do you find the standards for ambulatory centers to be illogical and unreasonable?
For clinics or doctor's offices? Absolutely. And that's the whole point.


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Then how was he allowed to operate for 20 years? Doesn't this only strengthen the argument for stricter regulations and higher standards?
This seems to be a state board issue and how they perform their oversight, not an issue of higher standards for certain clinics. Padlocking an emergency exit is illegal for ANY business.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:01 PM   #138
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According to whom?

The American Congress of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians and the Texas Hospital Association both came out against this bill and both contested the idea that the clinics are unsafe.
Are Texas health & safety standards too high for all non-abortion medical clinics? Perhaps the cost of medical care wouldn't be so high if we didn't have higher than necessary standards.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:01 PM   #139
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We must assume these health & safety standards exist for the protection of patients.
Why must we assume this?

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Why on earth would someone want women to obtain healthcare from a clinic that does not meet basis health & safety requirements?
Why should the health and safety requirements be any different than an OB's office, Dermatologist's office, or any other doctor's office where riskier procedures are being performed?
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:02 PM   #140
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Here is also state rep Debbie Riddle, commenting on the vote on SB5:

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"This is a tough fight – the Gallery is full of orange shirts – very few blue – orange are the ones I call Pro-death. I am Pro-life – so they must be Pro-death. A human is a human prior to birth just as it is human after it is born. We have killed 50 million babies after Roe v Wade. Hitler killed 6 million people."
But no, this isn't about a woman's right to choose at all. We're just being unreasonable and unhelpful by suggesting that is the underlying concern at hand.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:03 PM   #141
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Are Texas health & safety standards too high for all non-abortion medical clinics?
We're not comparing it to other clinics, we're comparing it to surgical centers, apples and oranges. They should currently be up to the standards of other clinics.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:06 PM   #142
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Why should the health and safety requirements be any different than an OB's office, Dermatologist's office, or any other doctor's office where riskier procedures are being performed?
Because unless I am very, very mistaken (it's been a long time since I've gone to the dentist or the dermatologist), the possibility of a baby being born out of a botched skin blot exam or a root canal is incredibly rare.

And these safety standards make sense not only because of the woman who is undergoing the procedure, but the five-month-old baby that could also be potentially delivered.

Does that answer the question a little better?
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:12 PM   #143
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We're not comparing it to other clinics, we're comparing it to surgical centers, apples and oranges. They should currently be up to the standards of other clinics.
Fair enough - isn't abortion a form of out-patient surgery?
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:13 PM   #144
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These safety standards make sense not only because of the woman who is undergoing the procedure, but the five-month-old baby that could also be potentially delivered.
Let's go with this line of thought - you are addressing 1% of cases.

What about the other 99%? Routine d&c procedures done at 6, 7 weeks? You are a man, so you've not had one, but I can tell you as a woman who has had two done (no, not for reasons of abortion, lest you label me a baby killer). I was essentially able to hop out of bed as soon as the general anaesthetic wore off and went right home. After the last one I had (which was on May 14 of this year), I had the surgery done at 7:30 am, was home by 11 am, and then I went out to Sherwin Williams to buy paint supplies. I managed to get the tape on around the baseboards, doors, ceiling, etc, but I was still a bit sleepy from the anaesthetic so I painted the next day.

We are not talking about major surgery here. I was FAR more mobile and feeling great after this than after my wisdom tooth extraction, after which I couldn't eat for days, etc.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:22 PM   #145
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is an abortion at 6 or 7 weeks any more intrusive or dangerous than a colonoscopy?
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:22 PM   #146
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Fair enough - isn't abortion a form of out-patient surgery?
No. There are much more invasive procedures requiring open tissue and stitching in dermatologists and dentists offices.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:27 PM   #147
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Because unless I am very, very mistaken (it's been a long time since I've gone to the dentist or the dermatologist), the possibility of a baby being born out of a botched skin blot exam or a root canal is incredibly rare.
I had a cousin that was born right there in the OBs office due to a complication. These offices have the standards and regulations that could handle this. Hell, you just commented on a documentary where children are being born in kiddie pools and communes, should we have your home regulated?

All I'm saying is that these clinics having the same regulations as a doctors office or other clinics, which is how they should be operating, are reasonable standards that have the health of the women in mind. This bill, not so much.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:28 PM   #148
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No. There are much more invasive procedures requiring open tissue and stitching in dermatologists and dentists offices.
And there are far less invasive. Do we set the standard for what generally happens, or for the cases that require higher degrees of care? I would think we would tend to err on the side of caution.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:29 PM   #149
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i'd love to regulate handguns out of practical existence.

i'm sure anti-choice folks feel the same way.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:30 PM   #150
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And there are far less invasive. Do we set the standard for what generally happens, or for the cases that require higher degrees of care? I would think we would tend to err on the side of caution.
Which is what we do now.
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