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Old 03-11-2009, 02:13 AM   #31
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Alright, new FYM rule, if you have an agenda or opinion, then you have no right to criticise others.
I think BVS' basic point was that one can't make informed generalizations about the legalistic or doctrinal aspects of a particular religion--its code of conduct as most of its followers understand it--if all you've read of it is a translation of its primary scriptural text. If you've never studied Talmud and responsa literature, and try to get into making extensive generalizations about what Jewish law says concerning this or that based only on reading the 'Old Testament,' then much of what you say will sound pretty silly to anyone (Jewish or not) well-studied in Jewish law. If you've never studied the major hadith collections, and get into making generalizations about what Islamic law says concerning this or that based only on reading the Koran, then much of what you say will sound pretty silly to anyone well-studied in Islamic law. If you've never studied canon law and get into making generalizations about what Catholic doctrine says based only on reading the 'New Testament,' then much of what you say will sound pretty silly to anyone well-studied in canon law. Etc. etc. etc.

It would be rather like reading The Federalist Papers and on the basis of that considering yourself adequately equipped to mount an effective critical smackdown of contemporary American jurisprudence. While it's obviously true that any of the aforementioned texts can be and are in turn interpreted very differently by various sects, not to mention various individual 'experts,' that only increases the importance of having a solid background on the topic before you venture into the labyrinth.

None of which means that one can't argue against specific known legal or doctrinal principles based on reason alone (for example, forcing a 9-year-old raped by her stepfather to bear the resulting children is wrong because _________), nor that one isn't free to observe that such-and-such scriptural passage sounds appalling or ludicrous. It's when you make the leap to extrapolating, e.g., 'Islam teaches that the faithful should do X' based only on the latter that you get into problems.
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Such as?
Are you asking for instances of Christian terrorism? In addition to the strand of the 'militia movement' right here in the US that's affiliated with the 'Christian Identity' movement (most notably, the Aryan Nations), there are several international examples as well: the NLFT (Baptist separatist militants) and Isak-Muivah (Christian Maoist militants) in India's troubled northeast; the cult-like LRA guerrillas of Uganda, DR Congo and Sudan; and a variety of loosely organized, skinhead-type Russian Orthodox militants active in Russia (most prominently--outside Russia, anyway--the RNU, who briefly attracted international attention after bombing the US consulate in Yekaterinburg and a historic synagogue in Moscow). Some political scientists would also include Northern Ireland's various paramilitary groups on that list; I personally wouldn't, because at least at this point in time, that's IMO primarily a case of religious affiliation functioning as a proxy for what's fundamentally an ethnonational divide, rather than driving the conflict in itself by furnishing ideology and/or extensive institutional support (as is the case with the other groups I listed).

However, concerning the possibility of defining 'Christian violence' more broadly, it shouldn't be overlooked that many Muslims internationally perceive a lingering Crusades mentality--and/or an unholy Jewish-Christian alliance against Muslims--underlying the 'Global War on Terror.'
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:48 AM   #32
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If the only knowledge you have of science is from a conservative religious home schooling, I'm going to question your criticism.

If the only knowledge you have of one's religion is a out of context website setup by another religion or atheist with an agenda, I'm going to question your criticism.
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Alright, new FYM rule, if you have an agenda or opinion, then you have no right to criticise others.


How did you get "you have no right to criticise" from "I'm going to question your criticism"?

Unless you're just looking for a fight, in that case I'm not interested...
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:49 AM   #33
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"if one has a biased background with a subject they have no right to criticise."
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:28 AM   #34
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"if one has a biased background with a subject they have no right to criticise."

Well if you put it in context, I put it in quotes and in the same structure of your previous statement because you really seemed to have a hard time following.

This all started with Iron Horse posting a link and saying read. Given Iron Horse's past I'm almost positive he hasn't read it before, other than some cut and paste job on the internet, therefore I'm not going to take anything he says seriously about this subject. I honestly don't know how much more explicit and straight forward I can be.
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:25 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Well if you put it in context, I put it in quotes and in the same structure of your previous statement because you really seemed to have a hard time following.

This all started with Iron Horse posting a link and saying read. Given Iron Horse's past I'm almost positive he hasn't read it before, other than some cut and paste job on the internet, therefore I'm not going to take anything he says seriously about this subject. I honestly don't know how much more explicit and straight forward I can be.

"This all started with Iron Horse posting a link and saying read. Given Iron Horse's past I'm almost positive he hasn't read it before, other than some cut and paste job on the internet, therefore I'm not going to take anything he says seriously about this subject"


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Old 03-13-2009, 11:36 PM   #36
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I'd be interested in how much of the Qur'an you've actually read, not just soundbyted...

For even the Bible could look like a book of hatred and violence if judged one verse at a time out of context.
It's a bit like me writing a short story and in it I say something like so:

"Edward heard Jim say "I hate white people""

You could quote just the "I hate .." part and condemn me for hating white people, but when you take the whole thing in its entirety you come to realize that the whole thing's just part of the story. Maybe my analogy is a bit daft, but hope you lot get the point.
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