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Old 06-15-2016, 11:36 PM   #46
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What? I can't think of any serious study in fascism that would exclude Nazi Germany. Fascism was more a continuum of ideas that originated in Italy and found expression in varying forms in Nazi Germany, Franco's Spain, the Iron Guard of Romania, etc.
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Old 06-16-2016, 12:10 AM   #47
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What? I can't think of any serious study in fascism that would exclude Nazi Germany. Fascism was more a continuum of ideas that originated in Italy and found expression in varying forms in Nazi Germany, Franco's Spain, the Iron Guard of Romania, etc.
actauly nazis are left weng bc it says 'soshulist' in the name
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:09 AM   #48
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there is a difference between totalitarianism and actual fascism.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:14 AM   #49
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I am interested to hear more from you on this opinion.
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Old 06-16-2016, 02:29 PM   #50
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well, obviously there’s a difference. the soviet union, for instance, was a totalitarian state, but definitely not fascist. franco’s spain was a totalitarian military dictatorship, but it wasn’t fascist. nazis were totalitarian national socialists, but my understanding is that historians do not consider it to be a true fascist state, more of a racialist one – hitler divided the german people along racial lines, whereas national unity at all costs is a pretty central tenet of fascism. social divisions in a true fascist state tend to happen more along class lines than race lines. nazi germany was certainly heavily influenced by mussolini and his gang, and of course they were both extreme right-wing, but there was enough of a difference that it wasn’t the same thing.

i did misspeak though when i said that italy had the only real fascist regime – what I meant was that it was the only great power with a fascist government. it was by far the most successful but there were also fascists in greece and romania too, just that they were generally short-lived and not very effective in implementing fascist policies.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:12 PM   #51
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I am not surprised the lefties in here tend to be a bit more fascist
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:27 PM   #52
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I am not surprised the lefties in here tend to be a bit more fascist

The two Trumpets have some of the higher scores.

Fuzzy math I guess that vote is rubbing off on you.


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Old 06-16-2016, 04:10 PM   #53
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hitler divided the german people along racial lines, whereas national unity at all costs is a pretty central tenet of fascism. social divisions in a true fascist state tend to happen more along class lines than race lines. nazi germany was certainly heavily influenced by mussolini and his gang, and of course they were both extreme right-wing, but there was enough of a difference that it wasn’t the same thing.
If I'm reading you correctly, you are saying the "true" fascism has nationalism as its core principle and is inclusive of people within governmental borders? If that's true, such a fascist state has probably never existed - at least I can't think of one that has entirely avoided scapegoating within its borders.

Personally I've never thought fascism is a particularly useful term. Totalitarianism has more applicability in terms of describing a cult of personality socio-political structure. Relentless propaganda is a key feature in this regard, and it's what ties together a lot of those WW2 and post-colonial dictatorships.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:14 PM   #54
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If I'm reading you correctly, you are saying the "true" fascism has nationalism as its core principle and is inclusive of people within governmental borders? If that's true, such a fascist state has probably never existed - at least I can't think of one that has entirely avoided scapegoating within its borders.
i wouldn't necessarily call it inclusive per se, but in general the overall goal in fascism is achieving maximum state efficiency, which ultimately arises from the citizenry all working towards the same objective. excluding large portions of the citizenry from society and working for that society is counter-productive to that goal. mussolini openly disliked the political and racial theory of mein kampf and only minimally cooperated with hitler in the holocaust, for example. he much preferred to have the jews work for him/the state than be slaughtered. of course, he certainly was no saint and didn't hesitate to be brutal with anyone he saw as an enemy, or had the potential to become one. government ideals always fall apart when met with the reality of statecraft.

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Personally I've never thought fascism is a particularly useful term. Totalitarianism has more applicability in terms of describing a cult of personality socio-political structure. Relentless propaganda is a key feature in this regard, and it's what ties together a lot of those WW2 and post-colonial dictatorships.
i agree absolutely. fascism is a very specific type of government operating on a very specific set of principles, but people have a tendency to immediately brand any far-right movement as "fascist", even ones that would be in open hostility to actual fascism. a dictatorship (with qualifiers - bourgeois/proletarian/military/presidential, etc) or totalitarian regime is a more apt descriptor for something like that. i chuckle to myself a bit when people call donald trump a fascist. real fascists must despise him.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:35 PM   #55
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I am not surprised the lefties in here tend to be a bit more fascist
This is a very daft post.

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well, obviously there’s a difference. the soviet union, for instance, was a totalitarian state, but definitely not fascist. franco’s spain was a totalitarian military dictatorship, but it wasn’t fascist. nazis were totalitarian national socialists, but my understanding is that historians do not consider it to be a true fascist state, more of a racialist one – hitler divided the german people along racial lines, whereas national unity at all costs is a pretty central tenet of fascism. social divisions in a true fascist state tend to happen more along class lines than race lines. nazi germany was certainly heavily influenced by mussolini and his gang, and of course they were both extreme right-wing, but there was enough of a difference that it wasn’t the same thing.

i did misspeak though when i said that italy had the only real fascist regime – what I meant was that it was the only great power with a fascist government. it was by far the most successful but there were also fascists in greece and romania too, just that they were generally short-lived and not very effective in implementing fascist policies.
I don't necessarily agree with your definition of Nazi Germany, but I understand that what constitutes fascism does waver a bit - particularly when you look at Franco.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:40 PM   #56
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he much preferred to have the jews work for him/the state than be slaughtered. of course, he certainly was no saint and didn't hesitate to be brutal with anyone he saw as an enemy, or had the potential to become one. government ideals always fall apart when met with the reality of statecraft.
Understatement.

Really, the nature of his end was well justified.

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i agree absolutely. fascism is a very specific type of government operating on a very specific set of principles, but people have a tendency to immediately brand any far-right movement as "fascist", even ones that would be in open hostility to actual fascism. a dictatorship (with qualifiers - bourgeois/proletarian/military/presidential, etc) or totalitarian regime is a more apt descriptor for something like that. i chuckle to myself a bit when people call donald trump a fascist. real fascists must despise him.
I was under the impression that the Donald had a lot of respect amongst American fascists. I don't think Donald himself is, but yet he does an effective job of mobilising these types.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:06 PM   #57
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Realizing now that my low score is rather telling as it explains why I am so against Hillary Clinton - someone who wants to always be in control of their image and always thirsting for more power.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:47 PM   #58
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Understatement.

Really, the nature of his end was well justified.
for sure. karma's a bitch.

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I was under the impression that the Donald had a lot of respect amongst American fascists. I don't think Donald himself is, but yet he does an effective job of mobilising these types.
i think he has a lot of respect amongst far right losers who call themselves fascists but really just see him justifying their bullshit from a high pulpit. the number of people in america who actually have thoroughly read, understand and adhere to the traditional doctrine of fascism is probably vanishingly small these days. fascists in america are much like the college students wearing che guevara t-shirts calling themselves communists (do college kids still do that?).
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:55 PM   #59
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fascists in america are much like the college students wearing che guevara t-shirts calling themselves communists (do college kids still do that?).
Not that I have noticed, I think it was very much an early-mid 00s sort of thing.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:56 PM   #60
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fascists in america are much like the college students wearing che guevara t-shirts calling themselves communists (do college kids still do that?).
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