A Little Treat For International Women's Day

[A_Wanderer]

A Brazilian archbishop says all those who helped a child rape victim secure an abortion are to be excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
The girl, aged nine, who lives in the north-eastern state of Pernambuco, became pregnant with twins.

It is alleged that she had been sexually assaulted over a number of years by her stepfather.

The excommunication applies to the child's mother and the doctors involved in the procedure.

The pregnancy was terminated on Wednesday.

Abortion is only permitted in Brazil in cases of rape and where the mother's life is at risk and doctors say the girl's case met both these conditions.
Police believe that the girl at the centre of the case had been sexually abused by her step-father since she was six years old.

The fact that she was pregnant with twins was only discovered after she was taken to hospital in Pernambuco complaining of stomach pains.

Her stepfather was arrested last week, allegedly as he tried to escape to another region of the country.

He is also suspected of abusing the girl's physically handicapped older sister who is now 14.

Intervention bid
The Catholic Church tried to intervene to prevent the abortion going ahead but the procedure was carried out on Wednesday.

Now a Church spokesman says all those involved, including the child's mother and the doctors, are to be excommunicated.

The Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, told Brazil's TV Globo that the law of God was above any human law.

He said the excommunication would not apply to the child because of her age, but would affect all those who ensured the abortion was carried out.
However, doctors at the hospital said they had to take account of the welfare of the girl, and that she was so small that her uterus did not have the ability to contain one child let alone two.

While the action of the Church in opposing an abortion for a young rape victim is not unprecedented, it has attracted criticism from women's rights groups in Brazil.

BBC NEWS | Americas | Rape row sparks excommunications

At least the Archbishop isn't being a hypocrite.

 

[pgv]

*sigh*

Yet more progression from the Catholic Church!

 

[A_Wanderer]

These events need to be chalked up, if only to be reminded the next time the Church makes moral pronouncements against other groups.

 

[deep]

A Brazilian archbishop says all those who helped a child rape victim secure an abortion are to be excommunicated

this is a good thing

I think all churches should start excommunicating anyone that does not believe the Bible "word for word".


I'd like to apply for excommunication from just about every Church out there.


I reject there 'dogma'. They can reject me until the endtimes get here.

I think they should have to give these people a 'refund' of all the offerings and donations they have made over the years.

(always ask for a reciept
1. you can show them to St Peter at the gate
2. when you are old and homeless, you can take you reciepts, perhaps $40,000, $50,000 or even $100,000 and ask the chuch for help, don't expect to get anything but a blessing)

 

[Pearl]

This archbishop is sick minded. He cares more for the rules of the church than human rights. A nine year old pregnant with twins due to rape deserves an abortion. Her body can't handle it! It may kill her or something.

Some people need to be more Christ-like than church-like.

 

[MooMoo!]

Some people need to be more Christ-like than church-like.

Thats a good way of putting it. Its all very well being pro-life, but they arnt pro to this little girls life are they?

I wonder what help they were planning to give her if they got their way? Not much I imagine.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What makes these rape babies any less sacred than Gods other children?

If abortion is absolutely wrong in the eyes of God then mustn't we be consistent, this isn't a slippery slope where we can let peoples opinions and medical details undercut Gods law.

 

[MooMoo!]

The girl shouldnt suffer because of her evil step-father. You could take the view that 2 lives (babies) would outweigh the 1 of the child, but hell, thats like saying an eye for an eye. Nothing good comes from either situation, but if the potential twins arnt going to have a good life, and potential medical issues, why ruin 3 lives?

 

[pgv]

What makes these rape babies any less sacred than Gods other children?
.

This is something I've always had an issue with too... to 'permit' a woman an abortion when the foetus is a product of rape is hypocritical if you disagree with rape in the first place. 'A life is a life' is it not? The pro-life argument does seem to waver on a lot of these issues, and such wavering weakens the argument.

 

[Pearl]

What makes these rape babies any less sacred than Gods other children?

They aren't any less sacred. But I support abortion if the mother's life can be in danger, and that looks to be the case with this girl. She was a child pregnant with twins. What were the chances of her actually carrying them to term? She didn't have the hips for the twins. I could imagine the damage it would do to her body if she ended up carrying them for a long she could go.

If she were to remain pregnant and miraculously carry them to term, then I would say she put them up for adoption. Not because she is far too young to be a mother, but because she was raped.

 

[anitram]

They aren't any less sacred. But I support abortion if the mother's life can be in danger, and that looks to be the case with this girl. She was a child pregnant with twins.

If she was 13 and had the hips, you'd be in favour of forcing her to carry to term?

I feel the same way deep does. Excommunicate my ass, see if I care.

 

[Pearl]

If she was 13 and had the hips, you'd be in favour of forcing her to carry to term?

Hell no.

If a woman -or a girl for that matter - doesn't want to be pregnant, by all means have an abortion.

 

[purpleoscar]

I guess the church hasn't heard of undue influence.

 

[yolland]

TIME Magazine, Mar. 6

"God's laws," said [Archibishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho], dictate that abortion is a sin and that transgressors are no longer welcome in the Roman Catholic Church. "They took the life of an innocent," Sobrinho told TIME in a telephone interview. "Abortion is much more serious than killing an adult. An adult may or may not be an innocent, but an unborn child is most definitely innocent. Taking that life cannot be ignored."

...Abortion is illegal in Brazil except in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger, both of which apply in this case. (The girl's immature hips would have made labor dangerous; the Catholic opinion was that she could have had a cesarean section.) When the incident came to light in local newspapers, the Church first asked a judge to halt the process and then condemned those involved, including the 9-year-old's distraught mother.

...Evangelicals have not projected a united pro-life platform in Brazil, certainly not one as monolithic as the Catholic Church's. But at least one major sect, the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, has taken a stance that showcases its differences with its Catholic rival. The Universal Church's television channel TV Record recently aired spots featuring a woman declaring, "I decided who to marry. I decided to use the pill. With my vote I decided who'd be elected President. I decided to work so that I won't be discriminated against. Why can't I decide what to do with my own body? Women should be able to decide for themselves what's important."

The public-relations campaigns of the Catholic Church's rivals do not impress Archbishop Cardoso Sobrinho. He told TIME that the Vatican rejects believers who pick and choose their issues. Rome "is not going to open the door to anyone just to get more members," he said after comparing abortion to the Holocaust. "We know that people have other ideas, but if they do, then they are not Catholics. We want people who adhere to God's laws."

...In truth, abortions and unwanted pregnancies are a sad constant in Brazil. Although abortion is illegal, an estimated 1 million women each year have one. The poor are forced into clandestine clinics or take medication, while the better-off are treated by qualified physicians at well-appointed surgeries known to anyone with money and overlooked by colluding authorities. That secrecy has a price. More than 200,000 women each year are treated in public hospitals for complications arising from illegal abortions, according to Health Ministry figures. Those who don't have the courage or the money to be treated take the pregnancy to term. Although the fertility rate has fallen considerably in Brazil (from 6.1 children in 1960 to about 2 today), 1 in 3 pregnancies is unwanted, according to Dr. Jefferson Drezett, head of the Hospital Perola Byington, Latin America's largest women's health clinic. Meanwhile, 1 in 7 Brazilian women between the ages of 15 and 19 is a mother, and the average age at which women have their first child has fallen to 21, from 22.4 in 1996, according to a government-funded study.

Those numbers shock the Catholic Church. But the Church's response to the Recife rape and abortion has shocked public opinion. Some Brazilians hope the controversy may compel the country to deal seriously with an issue that affects so many of its citizens. "Brazil wants to be a world leader, but the government can't guarantee equality for women," says [NGO policy associate Beatriz] Galli. "This is not a topic that anyone wants to debate."

 

[melon]

What makes these rape babies any less sacred than Gods other children?

If abortion is absolutely wrong in the eyes of God then mustn't we be consistent, this isn't a slippery slope where we can let peoples opinions and medical details undercut Gods law.

This is precisely how the Catholic Church thinks too. And, frankly, although the Catholic Church stated that having a C-section was enough to ensure that her life wasn't in danger, I'm pretty sure that the official Catholic stance on this issue is that the child's life still morally takes precedent over that of the mother, even if, in this circumstance, you're actually given a choice.

Like it or not, the exception for rape, etc. is an ad hoc morally relativistic stance, not one based on hard erudition, which the Church prefers.

These events need to be chalked up, if only to be reminded the next time the Church makes moral pronouncements against other groups.

Indeed. The romantic vision of the Catholic Church fostered during JPII needs to be dispelled. What we're seeing now with Benedict XVI has been, at the very least, everything that JPII believed too (as he was in a key position to determine morality even during the reign of JPII).

 

[Galeongirl]

The girl shouldnt suffer because of her evil step-father. You could take the view that 2 lives (babies) would outweigh the 1 of the child, but hell, thats like saying an eye for an eye. Nothing good comes from either situation, but if the potential twins arnt going to have a good life, and potential medical issues, why ruin 3 lives?

I think if they would've forced the girl to complete the pregnancy it would've been 3 lives lost. Those two babies cannot fully grow in a 9 year old girl's body. Either one of them dies early and the other might narrowly survive, or both get either born dead or, more likely, get miscarried when they start getting too big for the uterus.
And even if they would fully grow, there's the big chance the mother dies while giving birth. And to be honest, if it was me in that situation, I think that I would actually prefer dying at that point, rather than going into puberty raising two children that I got being raped by my stepfather.
That's not a life, that's hell on earth.

I think it's a good thing these people are excommunicated. The less loonies together, the better. I do not want to insult anyone who believes, but some people are taking this too far. WAY too far.

 

[Vincent Vega]

The people excommunicated are the mother of the child and the doctors, i.e. all the people involved in the abortion. Not the father.

The archbishop didn't excommunicate the loonies (doesn't take himself out, apparently).

 

[Galeongirl]

Wow. That makes even less sense.

So why wasn't the father excommunicated? Do they consider what he did normal? That there's nothing wrong with it? Completely fitting within the Catholic faith?

 

[Vincent Vega]

That's why the whole story became such an issue in the first place.
The archbishop admitted that what the father did was not right, but for him not reason to kick his butt out the church. Instead, he took issue with taking the life of these innocent unborn. The fate of the "mother" was not that relevant to him.

 

[Galeongirl]

Hypocrit.

Ah well, I guess we'll just have to hope that people who think as sickly as this guy will be extinct someday.

 

[yolland]

.

More Filipinos question birth-control taboo
A bill to provide contraception is the first to reach House debate in this largely Roman Catholic country.

By Jonathan Adams
Christian Science Monitor, March 10


QUEZON CITY, PHILIPPINES -- The battle over a ground-breaking reproductive health bill is heating up in the Philippines, a country where the influential Roman Catholic Church's opposition to artificial birth control has long held sway. A measure to provide government-funded family planning, contraceptives, and sex education has made its way onto the House floor for debate--the furthest any such draft legislation has ever reached.

...Backers of the bill say it's needed to prevent illegal abortions and help curb poverty by addressing overpopulation. But the church sees artificial birth control as immoral and has long prevented any efforts to provide government funding for such methods. It only supports "natural" birth control, such as the "rhythm method," by which women avoid having sex on the most fertile days of their monthly cycle. The church's allies warn that the bill could be a first step toward the legalization of abortion. A small group of them is holding up the bill in questioning on the House floor. Mr. Lagman and other sponsors hope to clear that hurdle when Congress comes back from break in mid-April.

About 81% of the Philippines' 96 million people are Catholics. In theory, they're bound to obey church leaders' authority. But a Pulse Asia poll conducted last fall found that 63% support the reproductive health bill, with 8% opposing (the rest were undecided)...The bill received support from a surprising quarter last fall: 69 professors at the prestigious Roman Catholic Ateneo de Manila University broke with their own church to sign an unusual open letter backing the legislation. In an interview in December, two of the professors said the bill would put the Philippines in line with other predominantly Roman Catholic countries, including Italy, Ireland, and Mexico. "We're the last Catholic country that hasn't allowed contraceptives and family planning of all kinds, systematically," said Mary Racelis, who is in the department of sociology and anthropology. "What's happening in our country is that women go for abortions because they don't have access to forms of contraception," added Marita Castro Guevara, from the department of interdisciplinary studies.

The bill's proponents cite data showing that as many as 500,000 women have illegal abortions in the Philippines each year, with some 80,000 going to the hospital due to complications. They say the bill would reduce abortions by providing better access to family planning resources...Although the bill doesn't fund abortion, its opponents are pushing a "slippery slope" argument. Last month, former Sen. Francisco Tatad argued that many developing countries that legalized abortion started by funding and promoting artificial contraception, the Philippine Star reported.

If the bill passes both houses, it would go to the desk of President Macapagal-Arroyo. Observers say they expect her to let it "lapse" into law, neither signing nor vetoing it. The president, herself a Roman Catholic, has said she has used birth control pills in the past--and later went to church confession about it. But as president, she's publicly toed the church's line on the issue, supporting "natural" family planning.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I can only assume that we don't have any real Catholics in FYM.

 

[AliEnvy]

Makes you wonder even how many real Catholics there are in Catholic church communities. Whatever real Catholic means. I doubt the majority of any congregation faithfully follows all the teachings of its church, whatever the denomination.

As long as no one acknowledges or talks about it, it's all good. When there is wide open debate or disregard, the rules change. The Bible however, stays the same. Funny that.

Prior to the rise of ethical investing, the Vatican invested heavily in the pharmaceutical industry including companies producing birth control.

 

[A stor]

This archbishop is sick minded. He cares more for the rules of the church than human rights. A nine year old pregnant with twins due to rape deserves an abortion. Her body can't handle it! It may kill her or something.

Some people need to be more Christ-like than church-like.

I agree with Pearl. A nine year old child could die from this pregnancy and/or delivery. Her womb is not strong enough. Plus, this poor innocent was raped.

 

[A stor]

I can only assume that we don't have any real Catholics in FYM.

I am Catholic and I agree with the medical decision of an abortion. The victim was a nine year old child who was raped. The pregnancy could have killed her. The mother's life must be saved at all cost.

In the U.S. This little girl would not have been ex-communicated from any Catholic Church. And her father would have been turned over to the police. The Catholic Parish I attend, has zero tolerance towards rape and/or child abuse.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Well, the father is in custody. And I don't think that it's entirely impossible in any other country in the world to have an archbishop who would act as differently. It might be more unlikely in countries such as the US as the church doesn't have such a firm standing here and the bishops are more aware of the possible backlashes.

 

[Dirty Olde Town]

Oy. So this nine year old should have been forced to die in order to preserve two babies who would likely have also died? Why does this work for a 'real' Catholic? It was a medical intervention to save her LIFE. Do you really think that these babies' lives are so sacred that they should be allowed to kill that child?

Frankly, I don't. Nope. Not under any circumstances. And we're not even going to discuss the awfulness of a child who has been raped at nine, and gotten pregnant at nine. How must this girl be hurting right now? And her mother? Now is when they need support from the church, not excommunication. That can't have been an easy situation for any of them.

But then, churches aren't known for their ability to understand the psychology of what really happens when a woman has an abortion. Most women do not like having them, only do it when they can see no other choice -- pregnancy is expensive, medically and emotionally. And so is abortion. Most women do it once and never do it again.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I've read the father started raping her when she was six. Frankly, this girl has gone through hell for so long. Then there comes the archbishop and says, "Your life is worthless, those of the two unborns is the only thing that counts." I think you can't have it worse.

 

[anitram]

I hope that if the archbishop is right and there is a God, that he is judged according to the manner in which he passed judgment while on earth.

Mostly I just think he'll turn into compost.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Just read, it was the stepfather. In other articles he was referred to as the father. And he cannot be excommunicated since he is a Protestant, not Catholic. Doesn't justify the actions of the archbishop at all, in my opinion, but it's an explanation why he wasn't excommunicated.