A Little Treat For International Women's Day

[anitram]

And he cannot be excommunicated since he is a Protestant

Yeah well the Bishop figures he's already going to hell as it is.

 

[martha]

Where are the usual anti-choice people? The ones who are all about being the ones who decide if women and girls are allowed to reproduce or not?

I would think they might have something to say about this case.

Or is an unpleasant dose of reality making them as queasy as the rest of us?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Yeah well the Bishop figures he's already going to hell as it is.

Why wink, it's true.

 

[trevster2k]

Church excommunicates mother of 9-year-old rape victim – but not accused rapist

Church excommunicates mother of 9-year-old rape victim – but not accused rapist - World news, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Brazil rocked by abortion for raped child

Monday, 9 March 2009

Declaring that "life must always be protected", a senior Vatican cleric has defended the Catholic Church's decision to excommunicate the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old rape victim who had a life-saving abortion in Brazil.

Cardinal Giovanni Batista Re, who heads the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, told reporters that although the girl fell pregnant after apparently being abused by her stepfather, her twins had, "the right to live, and could not be eliminated".

In an interview with the Italian newspaper, La Stampa, the cardinal added: "It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons. Life must always be protected."

Police believe the girl was sexually assaulted for years by her stepfather, possibly since she was six. That she was four months pregnant with twins emerged only after she was taken to hospital complaining of severe stomach pains.

The controversy represents a PR nightmare for the Vatican. The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

The case has set off fierce debate in Brazil, where abortion is permitted only in cases of rape or a medical emergency. Brazil is one of the most populous Catholic countries, but conservative attitudes in rural areas are strongly at odds with the relatively progressive public view of abortion in major cities.

Even the President, Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva, has waded into the row. "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic Church has such a conservative attitude," he said "The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl of nine years old. In this case, the medical profession was more right than the Church."

One of the doctors involved in the abortion, Rivaldo Albuquerque, has raised the prospect of public clashes at his local church, telling Globo, the nation's main TV network, that he would keep going to mass there, regardless of the archbishop's order. The young girl at the centre of the case escaped excommunication only because she is still a child in the eyes of Church authorities. The stepfather, who is 23, was arrested last week, apparently trying to escape to another region of the country. Police say he is also suspected of abusing the girl's handicapped 14-year-old sister. He is in protective custody, and if convicted faces up to 15 years in prison.

 

[yolland]

And he cannot be excommunicated since he is a Protestant, not Catholic.

Where did you read this? I can't find any articles confirming it. I have though seen several articles with this quote:

[Archbishop Cardoso Sobrinho] also said the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the church. Although the man allegedly committed "a heinous crime ... the abortion -- the elimination of an innocent life -- was more serious''.

And the same quote--which would seem to suggest that the stepfather is indeed at least nominally Catholic--is also referenced in the article trevster posted.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I've read it in an article by Alexander Smoltczyk, a German reporter and columnist about all things Vatican, and a great critic as well, who said that most critics of the church leave that fact out. He relies on other newspaper articles.
I hope he is right, overwise I have to apologize for this misinformation.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I want to see Bill Donohue speak out against all this anti-Catholic reporting.

 

[yolland]

I've read it in an article by Alexander Smoltczyk, a German reporter and columnist about all things Vatican, and a great critic as well, who said that most critics of the church leave that fact out. He relies on other newspaper articles.
I hope he is right, overwise I have to apologize for this misinformation.

Ah OK, I see it now.

If it's not too much trouble, would you mind translating this part of the article? The Web-based automatic translators are worthless as usual here.

Denn erstens ist der Täter gar nicht katholisch, sondern ein Evangelikaler, und nach Medienberichten ein sehr gläubiger noch dazu. Und außerdem hätte sich der Mann auch kirchenrechtlich nicht schuldig gemacht. Denn er war an der Tötung werdenden Lebens nicht beteiligt, im Gegenteil, er war dagegen.

Anders offenbar als die Vergewaltigung einer Neunjährigen konnte er einen Schwangerschaftsabbruch nicht mit seinem Gewissen vereinbaren. Hat der Mann gesagt.

 

[Vincent Vega]

It starts in the paragraph before:

Nachdem am Mittwoch voriger Woche der Eingriff erfolgreich durchgeführt worden war, sprach der Erzbischof von einem "Verbrechen" und "Verstoß gegen die Gesetze Gottes" und exkommunizierte die Mutter des Mädchens, den Gynäkologen und weitere in den Fall involvierte Personen. Der Stiefvater wurde dagegen nicht exkommuniziert. Was manch einen wunderte. Besonders die üblichen Kritiker der katholischen Kirche. Aber das ist ungerecht.

Denn erstens ist der Täter gar nicht katholisch, sondern ein Evangelikaler, und nach Medienberichten ein sehr gläubiger noch dazu. Und außerdem hätte sich der Mann auch kirchenrechtlich nicht schuldig gemacht. Denn er war an der Tötung werdenden Lebens nicht beteiligt, im Gegenteil, er war dagegen.

Anders offenbar als die Vergewaltigung einer Neunjährigen konnte er einen Schwangerschaftsabbruch nicht mit seinem Gewissen vereinbaren. Hat der Mann gesagt.

"After the abortion was successfully performed the week before, the archbishop spoke of a "crime" and "violation of the law of God" and excommunicated the mother, the gynecologist as well as other people involved. However, the stepfather wasn't excommunicated; which left some wonder. Especially the usual critics of the church; but that is unfair.

First, the asshole (fitting translation for the word Täter I think) is not a Catholic, but an Evangelical, and according to some media reports a very firm believer at that. And he didn't act criminally according to canon law. After all, he was not involved in the murder of nascent life, to the contrary, he was against it.

Apparently differently from rape he could not arrange an abortion with his conscience. Said the man."

I'm never really good at translations. Hope it gets the point across.
It should be noted that Smoltczyk uses lots of irony and sarcasm, sometimes I would even say cynicism, in his articles.

 

[Angela Harlem]

This story highlights the problematic stance with being against abortion except in the case of rape or when the mother's life is in danger. Those making the loudest noise here are lawyers and the church. Besides all of this, frequently doctors will have differing opinions on medical cases, so who can make a decision on a nine year old rape victim? God? A priest? A lawyer? A doctor? The nine year old? Differing medical opinions aside, it is not a stretch to see that a nine year old's uterus is too immature to carry such a pregnancy, and yet, they argue. It's not practical to be half against abortion.

 

[Galeongirl]

Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

Wow, that's disturbing. So now abortion is a bigger crime than rape?

I'm glad the rest of the country disagrees with this nutjob!

 

[A_Wanderer]

I consider murder worse than rape.

 

[Galeongirl]

I consider murder worse than rape.

Ofcourse murder is bad. But at least the victim won't suffer anymore after that.

Rape victims carry their scars for the rest of their life. A rapist ruins someone's life completely, and that of them around. A murdered ruins the life of people related to the victim.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I consider murder worse than rape.

Always, or just generally?

 

[Galeongirl]

By the way, just to add, I've no clue where that above my last post came from. It's not supposed to be there.

 

[A stor]

Church excommunicates mother of 9-year-old rape victim – but not accused rapist - World news, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Brazil rocked by abortion for raped child

Monday, 9 March 2009

Declaring that "life must always be protected", a senior Vatican cleric has defended the Catholic Church's decision to excommunicate the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old rape victim who had a life-saving abortion in Brazil.

Cardinal Giovanni Batista Re, who heads the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, told reporters that although the girl fell pregnant after apparently being abused by her stepfather, her twins had, "the right to live, and could not be eliminated".

In an interview with the Italian newspaper, La Stampa, the cardinal added: "It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons. Life must always be protected."

Police believe the girl was sexually assaulted for years by her stepfather, possibly since she was six. That she was four months pregnant with twins emerged only after she was taken to hospital complaining of severe stomach pains.

The controversy represents a PR nightmare for the Vatican. The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

The case has set off fierce debate in Brazil, where abortion is permitted only in cases of rape or a medical emergency. Brazil is one of the most populous Catholic countries, but conservative attitudes in rural areas are strongly at odds with the relatively progressive public view of abortion in major cities.

Even the President, Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva, has waded into the row. "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic Church has such a conservative attitude," he said "The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl of nine years old. In this case, the medical profession was more right than the Church."

One of the doctors involved in the abortion, Rivaldo Albuquerque, has raised the prospect of public clashes at his local church, telling Globo, the nation's main TV network, that he would keep going to mass there, regardless of the archbishop's order. The young girl at the centre of the case escaped excommunication only because she is still a child in the eyes of Church authorities. The stepfather, who is 23, was arrested last week, apparently trying to escape to another region of the country. Police say he is also suspected of abusing the girl's handicapped 14-year-old sister. He is in protective custody, and if convicted faces up to 15 years in prison.

Again, I am a Catholic and I strongly disagree with the decision made by the Bishop and the Vatican. This child was raped. Were is the compassion for her? This would not have happened in the U.S. Catholics would have rallied together, supported the child and whatever medical care, she desperately needed.

A medical abortion had to be done in order to save this child's life. At age nine, there is no way she could have carried in her small womb, two babies. It would have killed her.

 

[A_Wanderer]

So U.S. Catholics are hypocrites who have no respect for the sanctity of life, why couldn't they rally to give the very best medical support to improve the odds that she could carry the babies to term?

 

[A_Wanderer]

The Vatican would disagree with the idea that abortion is alright in this circumstance, I think I can take their opinion at face value

A senior Vatican cleric has defended the excommunication in Brazil of the mother and doctors of a young girl who had an abortion with their help.

The nine-year-old had conceived twins after alleged abuse by her stepfather.

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re told Italian paper La Stampa that the twins "had the right to live" and attacks on Brazil's Catholic Church were unfair.

It comes a day after Brazil's president criticised the Brazilian archbishop who excommunicated the people involved.

Brazil only permits abortions in cases of rape or health risks to the mother.

Doctors said the girl's case met both these conditions, but the Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho said the law of God was above any human law.

He said the excommunication would apply to the child's mother and the doctors, but not to the girl because of her age.

BBC NEWS | Americas | Vatican backs abortion row bishop

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

why couldn't they rally to give the very best medical support to improve the odds that she could carry the babies to term?

Assuming you're not being sarcastic..what kind of medical support exists that would allow such a thing? What is the youngest recorded age for a successful term delivery of a healthy baby, let alone twins?

 

[yolland]

^^

List of youngest birth mothers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Age 5 (by caesarean section, and not of twins). That girl presumably had some sort of pituitary disorder; I can't imagine that was just a case of puberty beginning early. A little further down it mentions a case of a 10-year-old who gave birth to twins in Indianapolis in 1979 (method of delivery not mentioned).

As far as I've heard, the Brazilian archbishops' advocacy of c-section in this case wasn't based on any actual knowledge of what this girl's medical exam results might have revealed about the particular risks to her of carrying the pregnancy to term. I know that in general, it's always considered a danger for mothers under ~14 that their pelvises might not be developed enough for normal childbirth; inadequate maternal nutrition (which in teens is associated with pre-eclampsia and other serious complications) is often a problem as well, even with prenatal care, given that the mother herself is still growing rapidly. I've heard some people say things about 'not enough room in her body for twins,' 'her uterus won't be strong enough to hold them,' etc. too, and those might be true--the former sounds like it might be plausible, although the latter sounds like b.s. to me. I mean, assuming we're actually going to entertain this ridiculous and sadistic idea just for the sake of it.

 

[A stor]

So U.S. Catholics are hypocrites who have no respect for the sanctity of life, why couldn't they rally to give the very best medical support to improve the odds that she could carry the babies to term?

No, I am not a hypocrite. The child was taken to the hospital, where as she was suffering from severe abdominal pain. There it was discovered that she was pregnant. This type of pain, during pregnancy, is not normal under any circumstance. It is a symptom, that would cause great concern to the attending physician.

Plus, as far as U.S. Catholics. This didn't happen in America. I am only reading about it here. How were we suppose to rally?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I understand how a moral person can allow abortion when there is a decent chance of it harming the mother, I have no issue with that, but that goes against Catholic doctrine (which was reaffirmed here), directly murdering an innocent (even to save the mother) is considered immoral.

I think that on the basis of his beliefs the archbishop was fully justified in excommunicating those involved, I also think actions like that should make moral people leave the Church.

 

[A stor]

I am not any kind of an authority on the Catholic Church's stance, points of view. I only attend mass for spiritual reasons. But, I remember. When, I was pregnant with my son. The priest who was a good friend of mine and my husband. Said, "my life would be saved at all cost." In case of a medically dangerous pregnancy. And he also said. "This is the way it should be." Because, if the mother dies, so does the child.

 

[A_Wanderer]

And that is a fine position to hold, sadly not one I could envisage the Pope endorsing to the masses.

 

[A stor]

And that is a fine position to hold, sadly not one I could envisage the Pope endorsing to the masses.

Me either. The Pope is a kindly old man who is basically out of touch, with a more advanced medical society.

Though, in the U.S. We are a far way from Rome. Catholics who pick and choose. Men and women who use birth control/family planing. Who also believe that sometimes though sad, an abortion is necessary, especially when the physical or mental health of the women is at stake. Which, would certainly include rape and or, incest.

 

[A_Wanderer]

He isn't a kindly old man, he is the leader of an entire religion, just because most Western Catholics are cultural (i.e. identify but don't believe the nonsense) doesn't diminish that fact.

For instance this story

Pope denounces condom use in visit to Africa

Pope Benedict XVI, who arrived Tuesday in Cameroon for his first trip to Africa as pontiff, denounced condom use on the AIDS-ravaged continent, saying there were better ways to combat the disease.

AIDS "is a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems," the 81-year-old pontiff told reporters on the flight from Rome.

The solution lies in a "spiritual and human awakening" and "friendship for those who suffer," said Benedict, who will also visit Angola during the weeklong trip.
Arriving in the Cameroonian capital Yaounde, the pope said he was bringing the "Christian message of hope."

"In the face of suffering or violence, poverty or hunger, corruption or abuse of power, a Christian can never remain silent," he said after being greeted on the tarmac by Cameroon President Paul Biya.

"Even amid the greatest suffering, the Christian message always brings hope," the pope said.

In his welcoming remarks, Biya told the pope: "Africans and Cameroonians in particular ... note your unwavering interest in those who suffer from war, disease and oppression."
He added: "This solidarity is also an encouragement for them not to cede to pessimism on Africa and to continue their efforts to build a more just and united society."

Thousands of people, including entire families, groups of children in their school uniforms, clergy and percussion bands, lined the route from the airport to the papal nuncio's residence where the pope was to be lodged.

Benedict, who left behind controversy at the Vatican over his lifting of the excommunication of a Holocaust-denying bishop, also denied feeling alone over the affair.

"In truth, this myth about solitude makes me laugh," the pope said during the flight, dismissing reports in the Italian media that the controversy had left him isolated. "I am surrounded by friends. Solitude does not exist."

The pope, who will turn 82 on April 16, last month said he wanted 2009 to be the "Year of Africa," which will also include a conference of African bishops in Rome in September and an African synod at the Vatican in October.

The stop in Yaounde, where Benedict will stay until Friday, will include a meeting with the representatives of 52 African states preparing the October synod.

The capital -- where Benedict is to celebrate an open-air mass on Thursday -- has been spruced up, with public buildings repainted, roads repaired and trees and shrubs planted and trimmed.

Vatican and Cameroonian flags bearing photos of Benedict and Biya flutter throughout the city, particularly around the teeming John F. Kennedy avenue.

However, in a country of nearly 19 million people where development has been hampered by one of the highest levels of corruption in the world, many ordinary people are struggling to show enthusiasm.

"Pope Benedict is offering us his first visit to Africa. We are happy. However, no one is going crazy with delight," Catholic sociologist Pierre Titi Nwel told AFP.

In Angola, which is still recovering from 27 years of civil war, Benedict will meet with diplomats posted in Luanda and urge the international community not to abandon Africa.
Sub-Saharan Africa is more heavily affected by AIDS than any other region of the world. Nearly two-thirds of all adults and children with HIV live in the region, according to a 2006 report by UNAIDS.

AIDS prevention is a subject that often puts the Vatican at odds with international health organisations, since the Roman Catholic Church advocates abstinence as the only effective way of preventing the spread of AIDS and opposes campaigns for the use of condoms.

In June 2005, the pope told southern African bishops visiting the Vatican: "The traditional teaching of the Church has proven to be the only failsafe way to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS."

Vatican watchers said they had never heard Benedict use the word "condom" before Tuesday.

While it is his first trip to Africa as pope, Benedict has travelled to the continent once before, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 1987 when he visited the Democratic Republic of Congo (then Zaire).

AFP: Pope denounces condom use in visit to Africa

A real Christian message of hope there.

 

[anitram]

The Vatican has been peddling that ridiculous, negligent meme for a while now.

 

[Liesje]

He isn't a kindly old man, he is the leader of an entire religion, just because most Western Catholics are cultural (i.e. identify but don't believe the nonsense) doesn't diminish that fact.

Maybe this is too off topic but can someone fill me in here? Why do so many people identify with this denomination but don't seem to actually believe or practice so many of the things that are preached? I'm not trying to be critical, I've always wanted to know. I've known people who tell me they are Catholic and after we start talking about what we believe, both socially and theologically they are practically less Catholic than I am (and I am not and never have been Catholic). Personally I'm at a point where I no longer identify myself with any denomination. I found some irreconcilable differences between what I believe/feel and the one I previously identified with.

 

[anitram]

Because Catholicism is different than Protestant denominations in that it has a much larger and stronger cultural component, and in many cases, a national component as well. Many Catholics around the world associate their Catholicism with their culture (the two are very closely intertwined in a lot of cases), and often with the formation of their nation states as well. It is a deeply ingrained thing.

I personally feel that way and I am not a practicing Catholic. It is a difficult thing to understand if you are not part of it. North American Catholics (outside of possibly Quebec which is an interesting entity in itself given their level of secularism) don't have such strong ties, for example, so even they don't really understand it on the same level.

 

[Liesje]

Fair enough. It certainly took me many years to undo what I was force-fed as a child. It just always seemed to me like people were selling themselves short, saying and associating with one thing and then doing something totally opposite. I can understand it in more developing countries, like where we studied microeconomics in Africa the church is everything (school, living compound, jobs, support for families and raising children, medical care within the compound, etc), but as far as the Catholic people I know (and some relatives) locally it just never made much sense.