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Old 10-09-2008, 09:00 AM   #166
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I thought I heard on the news today that AIG was getting another 38-40 Billion dollars on top of the $85 mil they already received

Great! Hahahaha

I should call the bank that is re-secured through them again, I wonder how on earth anyone can still trust AIG..

Capitalism at its best The funny thing is now everyone´s wondering how on earth this could happen (with 4,000 billion $ per day transferred around the globe, of which only 10% are the actual goods, 90% were speculation, derivatives etc. in computers.. what did we expect?)
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Old 10-09-2008, 09:17 AM   #167
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Capitalism at its best The funny thing is now everyone´s wondering how on earth this could happen (with 4,000 billion $ per day transferred around the globe, of which only 10% are the actual goods, 90% were speculation, derivatives etc. in computers.. what did we expect?)
I think this will be the ultimate downfall of modern capitalism. At some point, we forgot the value of actual production, instead of instruments of dubious value and reality. Now it looks like the "fantasy" is falling apart.
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Old 10-09-2008, 10:23 AM   #168
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I think this will be the ultimate downfall of modern capitalism. At some point, we forgot the value of actual production, instead of instruments of dubious value and reality. Now it looks like the "fantasy" is falling apart.

Right. I don´t think WE forgot the value of production (every American factory worker knows the value of his work..) but the investors did! And they didn´t just "forget it" accidentially, one could say, they wanted to forget this value. Economists like Stiglitz (World Bank) have been warning them for a decade. But of course, the Reagan/Thatcher/Bush model where the ideal is free trade worldwide without any government regulations also led to this crisis.

I wonder now, it seems politicians are only pumping money into this shady system (the effects gets lost again after a few hours or days, as you can see with AIG) or will they also introduce harsh regulations for trade?

I suspect they will prefer to pump a few thousand billions into the system just to make it "work" again (remember, they don´t pay - the taxpayers do, you and me) and then forget about the regulations. American and European citizens will be too lazy to remind them with force. At the moment, I don´t see a million of protesters in front of the Capitol or UK Parliament, or Elysee for that matter.

Downfall of "modern" neo-con capitalism? We shall see.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:23 AM   #169
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Right. I don´t think WE forgot the value of production (every American factory worker knows the value of his work..).
There are plenty of other values we're forgetting.


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American and European citizens will be too lazy to remind them with force. At the moment, I don´t see a million of protesters in front of the Capitol or UK Parliament, or Elysee for that matter.

Downfall of "modern" neo-con capitalism? We shall see.
Maryland Police Put Activists' Names On Terror Lists Surveillance's Reach Revealed

washingtonpost.com


By Lisa Rein Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, October 8, 2008

The Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent activists as terrorists and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases that track terrorism suspects, the state police chief acknowledged yesterday.

Police Superintendent Terrence B. Sheridan revealed at a legislative hearing that the surveillance operation, which targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq war, was far more extensive than was known when its existence was disclosed in July.

The department started sending letters of notification Saturday to the activists, inviting them to review their files before they are purged from the databases, Sheridan said.

"The names don't belong in there," he told the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee. "It's as simple as that."

The surveillance took place over 14 months in 2005 and 2006, under the administration of former governor Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R). The former state police superintendent who authorized the operation, Thomas E. Hutchins, defended the program in testimony yesterday. Hutchins said the program was a bulwark against potential violence and called the activists "fringe people."

Sheridan said protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations in the databases, but his staff has not identified which ones.

Stunned senators pressed Sheridan to apologize to the activists for the spying, assailed in an independent review last week as "overreaching" by law enforcement officials who were oblivious to their violation of the activists' rights of free expression and association. The letter, obtained by The Washington Post, does not apologize but admits that the state police have "no evidence whatsoever of any involvement in violent crime" by those classified as terrorists.

Hutchins told the committee it was not accurate to describe the program as spying. "I doubt anyone who has used that term has ever met a spy," he told the committee.

"What John Walker did is spying," Hutchins said, referring to John Walker Jr., a communications specialist for the U.S. Navy convicted of selling secrets to the Soviet Union. Hutchins said the intelligence agents, whose logs were obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland as part of a lawsuit, were monitoring "open public meetings." His officers sought a "situational awareness" of the potential for disruption as death penalty opponents prepared to protest the executions of two men on death row, Hutchins said.

"I don't believe the First Amendment is any guarantee to those who wish to disrupt the government," he said. Hutchins said he did not notify Ehrlich about the surveillance. Ehrlich spokesman Henry Fawell said the governor had no comment.

Hutchins did not name the commander in the Division of Homeland Security and Intelligence who informed him in March 2005 that the surveillance had begun. More than a year later, after "they said, 'We're not getting much here,' " Hutchins said he cut off what he called a "low-level operation."

But Sen. James Brochin (D-Baltimore County) noted that undercover troopers used aliases to infiltrate organizational meetings, rallies and group e-mail lists. He called the spying a "deliberate infiltration to find out every piece of information necessary" on groups such as the Maryland Campaign to End the Death Penalty and the Baltimore Pledge of Resistance. When Hutchins called their members "fringe people," the audience of activists who filled the seats in the hearing room in Annapolis sighed.

Some activists said yesterday that they have received letters; others said they were waiting with anticipation to see whether they were on the state police watch list.

Laura Lising of Catonsville, a member of the Baltimore Coalition Against the Death Penalty, received her notification yesterday. She said she wants a hard copy of her file, because she does not trust the police to purge it. "We need as much protection as possible," she said.

Both Hutchins and Sheridan said the activists' names were entered into the state police database as terrorists partly because the software offered limited options for classifying entries.

The police also entered the activists' names into the federal Washington-Baltimore High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area database, which tracks suspected terrorists. One well-known antiwar activist from Baltimore, Max Obuszewski, was singled out in the intelligence logs released by the ACLU, which described a "primary crime" of "terrorism-anti-government" and a "secondary crime" of "terrorism-anti-war protesters."

Sheridan said that he did not think the names were circulated to other agencies in the federal system and that they are not on the federal government's terrorist watch list. Hutchins said some names might have been shared with the National Security Agency.

Although the independent report on the surveillance released last week said that it was part of a broad effort by the state police to gather information on protest groups across the state, Sheridan said the department is not aware of any surveillance as "intrusive" as the spying on death penalty and war opponents.

The police notified the protesters at the recommendation of former U.S. attorney and state attorney general Stephen H. Sachs, who was appointed by Gov. Martin O'Malley (D) to review the covert monitoring. In a report last week, Sachs also recommended regulations that forbid such spying on protest groups unless the state police chief believes it is justified.

"I can't imagine getting a letter that says, 'You've been classified as a terrorist; come in and we'll tell about it,'" said Sen. Bryan W. Simonaire (R-Anne Arundel). Two senators noted that they had been arrested years ago for civil disobedience. Sen. Jennie Forehand (D-Montgomery) asked Sheridan, "Do you have any legislators on your list?" The answer was no.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:54 AM   #170
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There are plenty of other values we're forgetting.
Adding to my confusion, a friend yesterday told me that typically the Indexes of the Muslim countries (with regional Muslim businesses, not foreign import/ export) are free of arms, tobacco, alcohol, gambling business, you name it.. the Muslims do not allow you to trade with every shit according to their religion, *cough cough*
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:23 PM   #171
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NEW YORK—In a sign of the times, the National Debt Clock in New York City has run out of digits to record the growing figure.

As a short-term fix, the digital dollar sign on the billboard-style clock near Times Square has been switched to a figure -- the "1" in $10 trillion. It's marking the federal government's current debt at about $10.2 trillion.

The Durst Organization says it plans to update the sign next year by adding two digits. That will make it capable of tracking debt up to a quadrillion dollars.

The late Manhattan real estate developer Seymour Durst put the sign up in 1989 to call attention to what was then a $2.7 trillion debt.
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:44 PM   #172
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Things have gotten particularly bad when the Ger--sorry, I mean the ECB - cut rates.
These idiots are doing close to nothing to prevent this.
Of course we need general regulations for short but some products now would need short to minimize risk. I.e. look at insurance products that run for the next 20 years, coupled with national "blue chip" indexes!

The politicians apparently have no other idea than pump money into the bank system and make guarantees that only exist in their fantasy. What if they guarantee you all your savings, but inflation will rise to an all time high? The guarantees aren´t worth the paper they´re written on.


Look at European businesses like OMV, Immoeast or you name it, totally undervalued right now, in free fall but they can´t prevent it. When you play casino and can sell your stocks any day, ok, it´s your risk - but if you have insurance products to save for the future, for your retirement, like many people in Europe (typically fonds) - and they are bound to shit stocks - and even the fondsmgmt can´t react like "we secure this downfall through 10% of futures betting Index will continue to fall so at least we keep some of the cash..." - the fonds just lost all the interests they made in the last years in one month; 20, 30, 40 percent a year - you can´t do anything about it because politicians are dumb and only lie to you by telling "oh we are sooooo safe here, German businesses are safe" -

I can´t hear this blah blah anymore and it angers me.

Fucking Brussels like always too slow to react and has no impact at all with their idiotic guarantees.

What we would need are quick, hard regulations by professionals and a tax on all speculations - so WE people who save the banks now - get repaid the tax money that has been spent later. With interests of course.
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:08 PM   #173
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I am very concerned that tomorrow could be a black day across the globe.

Mind you the way things are going recently it will probably turn out to be the opposite. However at the moment i really fear that tomorrow could be a seriously disastrous day.
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:25 PM   #174
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NEW YORK—In a sign of the times, the National Debt Clock in New York City has run out of digits to record the growing figure.

As a short-term fix, the digital dollar sign on the billboard-style clock near Times Square has been switched to a figure -- the "1" in $10 trillion. It's marking the federal government's current debt at about $10.2 trillion.

The Durst Organization says it plans to update the sign next year by adding two digits. That will make it capable of tracking debt up to a quadrillion dollars.

The late Manhattan real estate developer Seymour Durst put the sign up in 1989 to call attention to what was then a $2.7 trillion debt.
It doesn't matter 'cos like it's tiny compared to GDP - Strongbow.
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:28 PM   #175
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I am very concerned that tomorrow could be a black day across the globe.

Mind you the way things are going recently it will probably turn out to be the opposite. However at the moment i really fear that tomorrow could be a seriously disastrous day.
Australian stock market down 5% in first half an hour trading.

Hold on to your hats, rough ride ahead.
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:44 PM   #176
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American and European citizens will be too lazy to remind them with force. At the moment, I don´t see a million of protesters in front of the Capitol or UK Parliament, or Elysee for that matter.
I do see civil unrest ahead.

I read that Gordon Brown has used legislation designed to counter terrorism to freeze Icelandic assets in the UK. This disgraceful action proves that Brown (and I am not excusing the actions of Iceland) is not only an economic incompetent, but also a fascist bastard.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:11 AM   #177
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I am very concerned that tomorrow could be a black day across the globe.
It's already being called Black Friday based on Asian market losses while we were sleeping last night.


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I do see civil unrest ahead.
Nothing will change for the better without it. It remains to be seen how bad everyday people's circumstances will get before we see real change.
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:30 AM   #178
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White House Overhauling Rescue Plan

By EDMUND L. ANDREWS and MARK LANDLER
New York Times, October 11


WASHINGTON — As international leaders gathered here on Saturday to grapple with the global financial crisis, the Bush administration embarked on an overhaul of its own strategy for rescuing the foundering financial system.

Two weeks after persuading Congress to let it spend $700 billion to buy distressed securities tied to mortgages, the Bush administration has put that idea aside in favor of a new approach that would have the government inject capital directly into the nation’s banks—in effect, partially nationalizing the industry. As recently as Sept. 23, senior officials had publicly derided proposals by Democrats to have the government take ownership stakes in banks.

The Treasury Department’s surprising turnaround on the issue of buying stock in banks, which has now become its primary focus, has raised questions about whether the administration squandered valuable time in trying to sell Congress on a plan that officials had failed to think through in advance. It has also raised questions about whether the administration’s deep philosophical aversion to government ownership in private companies hindered its ability to look at all options for stabilizing the markets.


Some experts also contend that Treasury’s decision last month to not use taxpayer money to save Lehman Brothers worsened the panic that quickly metastasized into an international crisis.

The administration’s new focus was announced late Friday as part of a rescue plan in coordination with six of the world’s richest nations. It came during a week when the Dow Jones industrial average plummeted 18%, one of the worst weeks in stock market history.

While the Treasury says it still plans to buy distressed assets, the scope of that plan is unclear. Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. has refused to say whether the capital infusion program for banks would be bigger than the original plan to buy troubled assets. Still, Treasury has directed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-controlled mortgage giants, to ramp up their purchases of hard-to-sell mortgage bonds, in what could be a speedier and less formal process than the auctions proposed by the Treasury.

Underscoring the gravity of the situation, President Bush convened an early morning meeting at the White House on Saturday with finance ministers from the Group of 7 industrialized countries. “All of us recognize that this is a serious global crisis, and therefore requires a serious global response, for the good of our people,” Mr. Bush said afterward in the Rose Garden, flanked by the ministers, who are in Washington for the annual meetings of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. Mr. Bush said the countries had agreed to general principles to respond to the crisis, including working to prevent the collapse of important financial institutions and protecting the deposits of savers. But he offered no details on other measures, suggesting that there were still differences among countries about which steps to take to shore up their respective financial systems.

To some extent, the effort to agree on a coordinated plan is being driven less by the hope that such measures will carry more punch than by the fear that nations acting alone could destabilize the system. Those worries grew in recent days when Iceland seized its three major banks, which were failing, and appeared to guarantee the deposits of Icelanders over those of foreigners. That provoked a fierce reaction from Britain, which is now in talks with Iceland to get back the deposits of British citizens.

With the United States and Europe working together on ways to secure their banking systems, economists are concerned that money may flow out of other countries, particularly emerging markets, to Western countries if investors decide that those markets are not as safe. The United States sought to reassure these countries in a meeting on Saturday evening of the Group of 20, which includes countries with large emerging markets, like China and Russia. “We want to reaffirm, reinforce our commitment that we’re going to take these actions in a way that doesn’t undermine the economies of other countries,” said David H. McCormick, the under secretary of the Treasury for international affairs.

Like the United States, Britain plans to provide capital directly to banks. But the United States and other countries have not adopted Britain’s proposal to guarantee lending between banks as a way to unlock the credit market. Germany has been reluctant to put state capital directly into banks, though officials said there were signs of movement in that position on Saturday. European leaders were scheduled to meet in Paris on Sunday, amid reports that Germany may announce a large rescue plan of its own.

Some experts said the delay in carrying out the Bush administration’s $700 billion bailout plan had only hurt its prospects for success. “Even if it was adequate before, it’s not adequate now,” said Frederic Mishkin, a professor of economics at Columbia University’s business school who stepped down as a Federal Reserve governor at the end of August. “If you delay and create uncertainty, the amount of money you have to put up goes up.”

As recently as late September, the idea of letting the government buy part of the banking system had been unthinkable in the Bush administration. To many officials, such intervention seemed like a European-style government intrusion in the markets. “Some said we should just stick capital in the banks, take preferred stock in the banks. That’s what you do when you have failure,” Mr. Paulson told the Senate Banking Committee on Sept. 23. “This is about success.” Mr. Paulson told lawmakers it made more sense to jumpstart the frozen credit markets with “market measures,” by which he meant buying up assets rather than institutions. He staunchly resisted Democratic proposals to require that the government receive an equity stake in the companies it was helping.

But on Friday, Mr. Paulson not only confirmed his intention to buy stakes in banks but gave the idea central billing. “We can use the taxpayer’s money more effectively and efficiently, get more for the taxpayer’s dollar, if we develop a standardized program to buy equity in financial institutions,” Mr. Paulson said.

Treasury officials said they hoped to make the first capital investments within the next two weeks. That would be earlier than any government purchases of unwanted mortgage-backed securities. One reason for Mr. Paulson’s rapid reconsideration was that global financial markets have been going downhill faster than anyone had seen before. Credit markets seized up and all but stopped functioning, making it impossible for most companies to borrow money on more than an overnight basis. Bank stocks plummeted, making it much more difficult to shore up their balance sheets by raising more capital from investors.

Investors panicked as the House initially rejected the bailout bill on Sept. 29. They panicked even more after Congress passed a bill on Oct. 3 that was packed with sweeteners that added $110 billion to the price tag. By the closing bell last Friday, the Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index had suffered its worst week since 1933.
A growing number of analysts argue that Mr. Paulson’s original plan, called the Troubled Assets Relief Program, would have been unhelpful and possibly unworkable. Some noted that Mr. Paulson presented Congress a proposal that was only three pages long and that Treasury officials have yet to provide details how the auctions will work.

As envisioned, the Treasury or its agents would hold so-called “reverse auctions” in which financial institutions are invited to compete against each other in offering to sell their mortgage-backed securities at a low price. Though auctions are common for all sorts of products, including electricity that utilities sell one another, experts said that mortgage-backed securities would pose difficult headaches because they are extraordinarily complex, difficult to value and come in almost limitless varieties. The bonds for a single pool of mortgages are divided into more than a dozen “tranches,” or slices, which have different seniority, different credit ratings and different rules for being paid off. The performance of the underlying mortgages varies greatly from one pool to another, even if both pools are made up of seemingly similar loans. “I am not aware that the Treasury Department presented any evidence on auctions that have been successful when they are used for assets that are so heterogeneous,” said William Poole, who retired in August as president of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.

Because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the mortgage giants, buy and sell mortgage securities every day, they could absorb some of the hard-to-sell securities without going through the untested auction process. The Federal Housing Finance Agency, which last month seized the companies and placed them into a conservatorship, lifted capital restrictions on them last week and effectively gave them a green light to buy more mortgage securities of all types, including those backed by subprime loans, given to borrowers with weak credit. The companies have a lot of money; Congress authorized Treasury to lend them as much as $100 billion each as part of the rescue plan created for them. That could free up money in the separate $700 billion bailout plan for injecting capital directly into the banks. People familiar with the early planning efforts for a systemic bailout said the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben S. Bernanke, argued that it would be easier and more efficient to inject capital directly into banks. But Treasury officials balked, in part because they were ideologically opposed to direct government involvement in business.

But as the financial markets spiraled further downward during the last 10 days, a growing number of top-tier institutions, including Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, became worried about their survival. “The crisis in confidence goes way beyond the actual losses that will be incurred from debt securities,” Mickey Levy, chief economist for Bank of America, said in an interview on Friday. “It’s truly incumbent on policy makers to address that crisis.”

Treasury officials began canvassing banks and investment firms about the possibility of having the government buy stakes in them. The new bailout law gave the Treasury the authority to buy up almost any kind of asset it wanted, including stock or preferred shares in banks. Industry executives quickly told Mr. Paulson that they liked the idea, though they warned that the Treasury should not try to squeeze out existing shareholders. They also begged Mr. Paulson not to impose tough restrictions on executive pay and golden-parachute deals for executives who are fired. Mr. Paulson heeded those pleas. In his remarks on Friday, he carefully noted that the government would acquire only “nonvoting” shares in companies. And officials said the law lets the Treasury write most of its own restrictions on executive pay, and those restrictions can be lenient if they are applied to a set of fairly healthy companies.
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:52 AM   #179
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I do see civil unrest ahead.

I read that Gordon Brown has used legislation designed to counter terrorism to freeze Icelandic assets in the UK. This disgraceful action proves that Brown (and I am not excusing the actions of Iceland) is not only an economic incompetent, but also a fascist bastard.
Hi. I don't mean this in an asshole way, but are you human? Or a newsbot?
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:18 PM   #180
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Hi. I don't mean this in an asshole way, but are you human? Or a newsbot?
Don't newsbots have rights too?
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