50,000 UK Students Protest Tuition Fees Hike - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-10-2010, 10:25 PM   #16
Blue Crack Supplier
 
coolian2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hamilton (No longer STD capital of NZ)
Posts: 42,920
Local Time: 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
nope. none.

criminology is the study of crime and WHY people commit crimes. it is more of a social science of the mind.

in my field, we dont give a shit about theory or WHY people commit crime. and "crime" for us is immigration and customs violations, not the general "crime" as discussed in criminology. we dont care WHY they commit the violations, we just do what we're told and enforce the law.

so, yeah 0%. i dont think about Bentham's rational choice theory when im chasing an illegal (or "undocumented worker" for the easily offended) through the bush do i?
so because you took a job that bears no relation to what you studied, nobody needs a degree?

obviously if you were taught any critical thinking you're not employing it now.
__________________

__________________
coolian2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 11:01 PM   #17
Blue Crack Addict
 
MissVelvetDress_75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: basking in my post-concert glow still mesmerized by the orbit of his hips..Also Holding Bono Close as he requested.
Posts: 25,776
Local Time: 05:37 AM
STUDENT TUITION FEES PROTEST: Rioters hijack middle class march | Mail Online
__________________

__________________
MissVelvetDress_75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 11:06 PM   #18
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,655
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
nope. none.

criminology is the study of crime and WHY people commit crimes. it is more of a social science of the mind.

in my field, we dont give a shit about theory or WHY people commit crime. and "crime" for us is immigration and customs violations, not the general "crime" as discussed in criminology. we dont care WHY they commit the violations, we just do what we're told and enforce the law.

so, yeah 0%. i dont think about Bentham's rational choice theory when im chasing an illegal (or "undocumented worker" for the easily offended) through the bush do i?
You don't think there's any psychology used when you are chasing a criminal?

Don't you have to anticipate?

I'd venture to guess that you use much more than you think...

I just sat in on a lecture given by some big name sales motivational speaker guy. The guy's a real ass, but this particular talk was very interesting. He was talking about how Algebra is important, how no one thinks they will ever use it in real life but how it actual teaches you problem solving. The lessons learned are implicit, but we use them everyday, or at least we should.
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 11:20 PM   #19
Refugee
 
A stor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.A. East Coast
Posts: 2,464
Local Time: 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
Financial aid and low interest loans don't make a dent in it.

And it's hardly competitive. My university doesn't care if some people won't go due to the costs; the freshman class represents less than 10% of the applicants.
Sorry Phils,

It has been a very long time since my Liberal Arts degree.

Now, I understand why my son didn't want to go to college. Even though, he had a partial scholarship and we wanted him to. He recieved extensive computer training during high school and even more so, at his job. He is making a better income than many college graduates.
__________________
A stor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:54 AM   #20
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
You don't think there's any psychology used when you are chasing a criminal?

Don't you have to anticipate?

I'd venture to guess that you use much more than you think...

I just sat in on a lecture given by some big name sales motivational speaker guy. The guy's a real ass, but this particular talk was very interesting. He was talking about how Algebra is important, how no one thinks they will ever use it in real life but how it actual teaches you problem solving. The lessons learned are implicit, but we use them everyday, or at least we should.
you mean like equations?

an illegal alien 50 feet away from you takes off at 9 mph. if your maximum running speed is 12 mph, how long will it take you to catch up to him?
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:57 AM   #21
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolian2 View Post
so because you took a job that bears no relation to what you studied, nobody needs a degree?

obviously if you were taught any critical thinking you're not employing it now.

im saying more often than not, the field has nothing do to with the degree.

and moreso: people with degrees arent getting jobs. i have lots of friends that are stuggling to find a job, even though they have the degree.

i've got a degree in media communications but the only job i can get is manager at best buy. that type of thing.
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 06:04 AM   #22
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,906
Local Time: 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
a degree is nothing more than a $50,000 or more piece of paper that qualifies you to get a decent job (but doesnt guarantee you'll get it).

not only is it a pretty much useless piece of paper, but the "education" you get will most likely have nothing to do with your field.

for example, my criminology degree has absolutely NOTHING to do with my current law enforcement position. i use ZERO percent of the little bit i remember from college.

to me it's a system that gets you a very small bang for your buck, other than having the opportunity to get in MASSIVE debt very early in life.
lol

seriously though, it's at least a stepping stone though isn't it, to get you where you want to be... i, for one, couldn't do my job without my degree, i wouldn't have had the same life and travel experiences, or gone to live in another country and continue with my career so easily... it's had a huge bearing on where me and my family have ended up... my kids have grown up bilingual which probably wouldn't have been the case had i not gone to uni...

safe to say, many of my university friends (in fact, all of the ones i am still in contact with) wouldn't have ended up in the careers they have without their degrees...
__________________
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 10:12 AM   #23
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 05:37 AM
My cousin is going into law enforcement (he's already worked for the PD since he turned 18, he does dispatch and I think is in the police cadet program) and they require a college degree.

The BA is the new GED. You have to have it but for many jobs it doesn't really matter what it's for or where you got it.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:44 PM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 06:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
a degree is nothing more than a $50,000 or more piece of paper that qualifies you to get a decent job (but doesnt guarantee you'll get it).

not only is it a pretty much useless piece of paper, but the "education" you get will most likely have nothing to do with your field.

for example, my criminology degree has absolutely NOTHING to do with my current law enforcement position. i use ZERO percent of the little bit i remember from college.

to me it's a system that gets you a very small bang for your buck, other than having the opportunity to get in MASSIVE debt very early in life.
You have to be joking?

University is an investment, really. Some degrees will get you further, some will be more practical than others, and some are hanging around due to current trends (like half my high school graduating class deciding they wanted to study CSI because it was a cool show (TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL or they were heavily bullied and had evident psych issues TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL)

If I'm a girl graduating high school in the US and decide to spend $ 15K a year to study Fine Arts, stay in a beautiful rustic dorm, overpay for on-campus food, and have mediocre at best drawing skills and no realistic career path beyond "get a job after college", whose fault is that?

Now, due to grade inflation thanks to my "me me me" generation, and the fact that more and more people attend at least a two-year community college, a Bachelors is worth a lot less in real terms than it used to be.

I don't want to wade into the "useful degree" or "useless degree" debate (Chicana Studies majors you know who you are), but university is what you make of it. Your earning potential increases with every level-up you do in higher education, there is no disputing that.

At the end of the day, I think as a society the West is shunning vocational education to its detriment. There's nothing fucking wrong with having a specific career path and taking a short, intensive course to get going in it. If I want to be a web designer I'm not going to do a four-year general studies or art course at university, generally.
__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 02:07 PM   #25
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
nope. none.

criminology is the study of crime and WHY people commit crimes. it is more of a social science of the mind.

in my field, we dont give a shit about theory or WHY people commit crime. and "crime" for us is immigration and customs violations, not the general "crime" as discussed in criminology. we dont care WHY they commit the violations, we just do what we're told and enforce the law.

so, yeah 0%. i dont think about Bentham's rational choice theory when im chasing an illegal (or "undocumented worker" for the easily offended) through the bush do i?
It's kind of like you ended up taking a food writing trip to learn how to be a line cook.

I recommend people really try and audit a couple of courses before enrolling, if your college is lazy about making sure who's in the class is actually in the degree.

The key transition many folks don't make from high school to college is that you're not responsible to the college; it is responsible to you.
__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 02:36 PM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1131 View Post
At the end of the day, I think as a society the West is shunning vocational education to its detriment.
Most jobs in Germany are being learn as vocational training. Apprenticeships are common in all trades and many other lines of works. Since PISA tests are being done, the commission is repeatedly critizising Germany for its students ratio being way below OECD average. Even some politicians have picked up on it.
It's totally stupid because it entirely misses the point. If you took out the number of people that in Germany do vocational training while in most other countries you'd attend college or university for it, our numbers are not lower.

The thing I like about here is, even though we might not have top ten universities or anything like Ivy League etc., no matter what you study here it won't cost you more than €1,000 a semester. So when you finished your degree, even if you took out a loan it won't be anything like paying down a house.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 07:49 PM   #27
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 11:37 AM
State universities' annual budgets are public record, and available to all their citizens. I strongly recommend that any concerned student--and uni staff/faculty, whom with the exception of administrators are usually just as much in the dark as their students--look them up and read over them.

With the exception of Virginia, Texas, Michigan and North Dakota who do it differently, that budget-setting process works like this: once a year, the chancellors of your state colleges go before the state legislature to present their proposed budgets for the next fiscal year, in line-item format, with every last dime earmarked for something specific--employee salaries and healthcare for the various personnel divisions; academic, residential, and recreational facilities; laboratory and information technology; student aid; librairies; etc. etc. They begin by presenting a detailed breakdown of where they've cut costs, and by which methods (outsourcing, layoffs, elimination of certain extracurriculars etc.), and conclude with a reminder that reduced appropriations mean higher tuitions and therefore further damage to their mission of providing an affordable in-state education for citizens, particularly the poor whose enrollment and retention rates keep dropping. The legislators then pore over the proposed budget line-by-line and decide exactly how much they'll provide for each breakdown. They then make their 'counteroffer,' at which the administrators respond: Okay, but realize we'll need to increase tuition by Y dollars to cover the difference. The legislators will then respond: Not good enough; trim a further X dollars per student by consolidating these three departments and outsourcing that one, then raise tuitions by Y minus X instead. The administrators reply, Okay--it's a deal, and both parties then sign off on the finalized budget. So, the process of securing a public college's revenue stream is a negotiation between administrators and legislators: administrators do not have the power to dictate tuitions, and legislators are constrained not just by how much money state tax policies currently provide, but also by what (if any) pressures their constituents--who, unlike public universities, vote and pay taxes--are putting on them to keep tuition costs down, without declines in academic quality.

As mentioned, a handful of states don't follow this process. As state appropriations for higher education progressively declined over the last three decades, a few of the hardest-hit university systems negotiated for--and got--freedom from both tuition negotations and out-of-state student caps in return for permanently minimized state funding. The latter freedom is significant, because out-of-state students, though expensive to attract, make up for that by paying a lot more in tuition. As a result, U-VA, for example, is now 40% out-of-state enrollment (compared to figures in the low-to-mid teens at most state schools), despite its ostensible primary mission to serve Virginia citizens.

Tuition costs since the late 1970s have grown and fluctuated in lockstep with declines in state higher-ed appropriations, both as a share of state budgets (a one-third decline) and as a share of public universities' revenue streams (a two-thirds decline). Increasing state Medicaid costs and a decline in the post-WWII civic ethos of strong government support for higher ed--epitomized by the GI Bill--are in turn the main reasons for (proportionately) shrinking public support. To make matters worse, federal support, which of course almost exclusively takes the form of student aid, has gone during the same time period from being 20% loan-based to 80% loan-based. The steepest declines in state spending came during the 90s (my college and grad-school years, so I remember the panicked climate vividly), and most analysts of the problem agree that this is when the real paradigm shift occurred: regrettably, but inevitably, public colleges and universities started thinking much more like businesses--in terms of competition for students, as much as service to them. The best in-state students increasingly found their state's public colleges no longer enough of a bargain to justify not spending a little more to attend prestigious private colleges boasting superior academic facilities, more nationally distinguished research scholars on their faculties, and more vibrant extracurricular scenes. So, you hike tuitions at unprecedented rates, and enter into research-supporting "partnerships" with industry (Californians may recall the numerous scandals during this time concerning untenured faculty being fired for publicly criticizing certain effects of U-Cal's biotech partnerships), to acquire more of those desirable attributes, and thus bring your cost-benefit appeal back into the ballpark for those top-tier students--and, as a bonus, wind up attracting more out-of-$tate and foreign $tudent$ (who, thanks to rapid growth in the developing world, were seeking American diplomas in record numbers at that time).

On the bright side, all this has much to do with why the quality--NOT the cost-effectiveness!--of US undergraduate and especially graduate education is routinely ranked near or at the top internationally. On the downside...well, that's a no-brainer.

One response some education experts have suggested is for states to experiment by creating "alternative" universities with some or all the "frills" removed--no extracurriculars; minimal lab and info-tech facilities; no physical libraries; minimalist dorms and student centers; consolidated academic departments; forego tenured faculty in favor of letting administrators determine curriculum, major-track options, internship programs and so on for multiple majors at once, while part-time adjuncts handle the actual teaching; strong focus on online-based degree options; outsource maintenance, accounting and other such operations; etc. etc. etc. A somewhat similar idea is to transform your existing 4-year colleges and universities into primarily "junior/senior + grad" institutions, while overhauling your existing community college system to make it mandatory point-of-entry for most students seeking a BA or higher.

Of course, there's also the option of raising state taxes, while simultaneously requiring universities to make much deeper spending cuts than they have been in areas considered lower-priority by the electorate. But that ain't gonna happen unless and until said electorate stops passively submitting, starts networking with concerned voters in other states, and takes their grievances where they belong--the state assembly, where the deals are being cut.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 07:53 PM   #28
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 11:37 AM
....and, Re: the utility (or lack thereof) of a college degree--without going into details on the problem of maximizing your BA investment when you really don't know yet what your longterm career goals are (hint: Use. The. Frickin'. Career. Counseling. Services. That's. What. They're. There. For.), let me just offer this: almost anyone who's ever managed a good-sized business, as I did for the better part of a decade, will tell you that, Yes, there absolutely is a pronounced difference in overall competence between high-school grads and college grads--in everything from workplace communications skills, to client/customer relations skills, to speed of mastering new technologies and procedures, to innovative responses to new and old systemwide problems, to really just about everything. Are there exceptions? Sure--I remember, in particular, one assistant manager with a BA who couldn't manage a coherent email summarizing the previous day's sales, HR incidents and equipment malfunctions, and conversely a fellow general manager with the same company who was a high-school dropout but one of the sharpest HR minds I've ever seen, and perfectly adequate in all the other major job competencies for management as well. But those folks were the exceptions that proved the rule.

Also, a couple years "off" (i.e. strictly in the workforce, and not also in school) between high school and college--or between college and advanced-degree studies--can be a sound option for some young people. I've had several "crash-and-burn"-kids turned stellar students over the years tell me their "time off" was one of the smartest decisions they ever made. It's not for everybody, but neither should this option be summarily dismissed as a ticket to longterm failure.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 08:04 PM   #29
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
....and, Re: the utility (or lack thereof) of a college degree--without going into details on the problem of maximizing your BA investment when you really don't know yet what your longterm career goals are (hint: Use. The. Frickin'. Career. Counseling. Services. That's. What. They're. There. For.), let me just offer this: almost anyone who's ever managed a good-sized business, as I did for the better part of a decade, will tell you that, Yes, there absolutely is a pronounced difference in overall competence between high-school grads and college grads--in everything from workplace communications skills, to client/customer relations skills, to speed of mastering new technologies and procedures, to innovative responses to new and old systemwide problems, to really just about everything. Are there exceptions? Sure--I remember, in particular, one assistant manager with a BA who couldn't manage a coherent email summarizing the previous day's sales, HR incidents and equipment malfunctions, and conversely a fellow general manager with the same company who was a high-school dropout but one of the sharpest HR minds I've ever seen, and perfectly adequate in all the other major job competencies for management as well. But those folks were the exceptions that proved the rule.
I would have to say my experience was different. I didn't really learn any of those real world skills you mention at college, but rather by trial-and-error and being thrown in the deep end in the workplace. For me, the only real advantage of having a degree was getting the foot on the career ladder in the first place. Granted, that's not insignificant. Of people I've worked with, my impression is that the caliber of the college graduates is generally better than those with only high school certificates - in particular, they tend to be better at adapting to change, IMO the single most important attribute for success in a modern workplace - but that may be simply because people of high ability are more likely to go to college in the first place.
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 08:08 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
Most jobs in Germany are being learn as vocational training. Apprenticeships are common in all trades and many other lines of works. Since PISA tests are being done, the commission is repeatedly critizising Germany for its students ratio being way below OECD average. Even some politicians have picked up on it.
It's totally stupid because it entirely misses the point. If you took out the number of people that in Germany do vocational training while in most other countries you'd attend college or university for it, our numbers are not lower.

The thing I like about here is, even though we might not have top ten universities or anything like Ivy League etc., no matter what you study here it won't cost you more than €1,000 a semester. So when you finished your degree, even if you took out a loan it won't be anything like paying down a house.
Agreed completely. The German vocational system should be emulated by other countries, rather than having German politicians seeking to water it down. In the UK and Ireland, a lot of people who spend three years studying for general BA degrees would be much more suited to vocational courses.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com