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Old 07-14-2010, 12:21 PM   #46
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No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.


~Thomas Jefferson
I believe this is still important.
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:54 PM   #47
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I'm saying that people should be considerate of other people's feelings. It would be so wrong for me to go into your house (if you were in mourning G-d forbid) and start slandering and cursing your loved one, don't you think so?
Yes, but you can't legislate being a considerate person.


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If I have nothing to hide then the police are more than welcome to open my trunk, even if it's just to bust my chops. But if I'm hiding weapons or drugs and I get busted - that's MY problem and I'm not going to claim my rights were violated because I WAS caught committing a crime.
What if you are 18 driving your parents car, they have alcohol in the back and you don't know it, you get pulled over for speeding? Under your "cops don't need rules" mentality this minor would not only get a speeding ticket but also a Minor in Possession. This is fair to you? The 18 year old was innocent except for speeding.

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Of course you can, otherwise rapists and murderers would get off with a 100 dollar dine and that's it. Of course outrage is a factor in judgments - that's only logical.
This is not based on emotion, it's based on what threat they pose to society.


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Yes I know that innocent people have been freed after having been convicted. I'm talking about a criminal who was proven guilty by EVERY means and with no doubt whatsoever: DNA doesn't lie...it can convict a man or exonerate him. If a vicious criminal is convicted on irrefutable(sp?) evidence then by all means execute him.
This is not what you stated before. Appeals and rights exist so that we can exhaust every avenue. You may not like it, but the innocent framed people do.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:05 PM   #48
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Of course you can, otherwise rapists and murderers would get off with a 100 dollar dine and that's it. Of course outrage is a factor in judgments - that's only logical.

...

Yes I know that innocent people have been freed after having been convicted. I'm talking about a criminal who was proven guilty by EVERY means and with no doubt whatsoever: DNA doesn't lie...it can convict a man or exonerate him. If a vicious criminal is convicted on irrefutable(sp?) evidence then by all means execute him.
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This is not what you stated before. Appeals and rights exist so that we can exhaust every avenue. You may not like it, but the innocent framed people do.
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If we want to discuss the death penalty, lets keep it to a separate thread.
Ahem.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:16 AM   #49
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The Founding Fathers didn't foresee a gun culture that was spinning out of control.
How is the gun culture in America spinning out of control?

What specific examples could you cite?
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:12 AM   #50
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How is the gun culture in America spinning out of control?

What specific examples could you cite?


Look on youtube, you have "parents" that are filming their 5 year olds how to fire automatic weapons and then laughing at them when it backfires on them.

You have a whole culture out there that only care about one issue and that's gun rights, they live breathe guns. Conventions, magazines, family days at the range, etc...

It's not just about protection like the Forefathers talked about, it's much more now.

And I haven't even touched upon movies or gang culture.

Do you really not see it?
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:22 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.


~Thomas Jefferson
Well good luck with that!

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Old 07-15-2010, 05:46 PM   #52
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:00 PM   #53
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I can't tell, is that your living room or bedroom?
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:12 PM   #54
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You guys keep arguing over the 2nd amendment. Its the perfect distraction from where the real gun danger is coming from. You're playing right into the terrorist's hands. fools

YouTube - NMA 2010.06.30 動新聞 神學士恐怖「猴」子 受訓狙殺美軍
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:32 PM   #55
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You have a whole culture out there that only care about one issue and that's gun rights, they live breathe guns. Conventions, magazines, family days at the range, etc...

It's not just about protection like the Forefathers talked about, it's much more now.

And I haven't even touched upon movies or gang culture.

Do you really not see it?
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to "gun politics" in America. That's why I asked your opinion.

All I know is that after the Columbine shooting, the whole "gun control vs. gun rights" debate heated up dramatically. It's worsened since then. Now you have the Brady Campaign and that Students for Concealed Carry on Campus movement that sprouted after Virginia Tech. Both are irrational special interest groups, if you ask me.

I also know that Americans have become desensitized to mass shootings when they are reported in the news. Because it happens all the time in this day and age.

Plus, I found if funny that when Obama was elected, many staunch right-wingers went out and bought more and more firearms, thinking "Those Dems will raise the prices of guns- oh no!"

Anyway, BVS, I just wanted to ask you (1) why America has a "pro-gun vs. gun control" battle ranging on, and (2) why America suffers from so much gun violence (i.e. shootings at schools, malls, churches, etc.).
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:51 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by HBK-79 View Post
All I know is that after the Columbine shooting, the whole "gun control vs. gun rights" debate heated up dramatically. It's worsened since then. Now you have the Brady Campaign and that Students for Concealed Carry on Campus movement that sprouted after Virginia Tech. Both are irrational special interest groups, if you ask me.
Why is the Brady Campaign an irrational special interest group?
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Anyway, BVS, I just wanted to ask you (1) why America has a "pro-gun vs. gun control" battle ranging on, and (2) why America suffers from so much gun violence (i.e. shootings at schools, malls, churches, etc.).
Why do we have a pro-gun vs gun control battle? That's kind of like asking why do we have Republican vs Democrats I don't know.

Why gun violence? Well I think there are far too many answers for that. I think the reasons for gang violence is much different than the reasons for mass shootings in schools, or crimes of passion, etc... All I do know is that there would be much less of all of these if guns were harder to get legally or on the black market.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:52 AM   #57
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Everything the founding fathers said is perfectly applicable today. Just the same as the Bible. I better not catch anyone eating shellfish.
As said from the taken-for-granted luxury of a stable democratic government. Certainly, if the Roman Republic's transition to a fully autocratic empire is a worthy example, this may not be a given forever. Or, looking at it from a more modern perspective, the physical inability of a successful popular revolt to happen in nations like Iran or North Korea, is because of the sheer imbalance in firepower between the heavily armed government and the public.

Just as cars can kill people in the wrong hands, I certainly support legal measures that require standards for responsible gun ownership. Kids shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car and neither should they have access to guns; but, just as we would not criminalize the former because kids shouldn't drive them, we would not necessarily have to criminalize the latter.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:59 AM   #58
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Anyway, BVS, I just wanted to ask you (1) why America has a "pro-gun vs. gun control" battle ranging on, and (2) why America suffers from so much gun violence (i.e. shootings at schools, malls, churches, etc.).
Actually, the perception that U.S. gun violence is "out of control" is largely a media construct. Certainly, looking at these figures, the U.S. firearm homicide rate is higher compared to European nations that have banned firearms. Nonetheless, in many cases, the non-firearm homicide rate is much higher accordingly so that the overall homicide statistics are actually worse in many nations compared to the U.S. I do not doubt that if we were to successfully rid the U.S. of all guns that many homicides would shift from firearms to other weapons.

Why homicides happen at all appear to be motivated by other circumstances (socioeconomic/cultural, etc.), rather than the presence or lack thereof of firearms.
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:43 PM   #59
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Actually, the perception that U.S. gun violence is "out of control" is largely a media construct. Certainly, looking at these figures, the U.S. firearm homicide rate is higher compared to European nations that have banned firearms. Nonetheless, in many cases, the non-firearm homicide rate is much higher accordingly so that the overall homicide statistics are actually worse in many nations compared to the U.S. I do not doubt that if we were to successfully rid the U.S. of all guns that many homicides would shift from firearms to other weapons.

Why homicides happen at all appear to be motivated by other circumstances (socioeconomic/cultural, etc.), rather than the presence or lack thereof of firearms.


Thank you for the information.
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