2016 US Presidential Election Thread XIV: May This Entertainment Never End

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US Democrats/liberals can't have it both ways.

In the one hand we are invited to believe:

(1) GOP = terribly bad peeps

AND, on the other hand, also

(2) Because Trump is criticised by some GOP'rs, THEN that means that Trump must be dreadful.

There seems to be a bit of a logical failure here, wouldn't you have thought? You seem to be suggesting that conservatives are terrible if they vote for Trump, but that they're lovely people when they criticise Trump.

Also, as a matter of interest can you explain why it is that you think that you have the right to speak for the 'global stage' (whatever the 'global stage' even means)?

To your first point: With regard to elected officials, I have regard for some GOPs, not so much for others, but my point was, the GOP has hated Hillary for 25 years, you'd think they'd rally around anyone running against her, but Trump is so toxic to their own political fortunes that he can't even unify the party against Hillary. Part of that is he's said and done a bunch of unsavory, to say the least, things that have made it politically difficult for elected Republicans to support him. Part of that is that he's not even, on an ideological level, convincing as a conservative to a lot of them. The end result is that even with what you'd think would be the easiest opponent to rally the party against, he's had the opposite effect.

To your second point: I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm just stating my observation that on the occasions when I've seen non-Americans state their opinions, here and elsewhere, they've almost uniformly been aghast that one of our major political parties has nominated this guy for our highest office.
 
Yeah, everybody I talk to in Australia and New Zealand, even those who vote for our right-wing parties, is basically crossing their fingers and hoping Hillary wins. A victory by the orange fascist is unthinkable.
 
The only thing I didn't get out of the third debate was Trump giving into his id fully and calling Hillary a bitch on national television. He came perilously close, settling on "nasty woman," but tonight wasn't the night.
 
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Welcome back Sting/[assorted other aliases] :wave:

Yeah, everybody I talk to in Australia and New Zealand, even those who vote for our right-wing parties, is basically crossing their fingers and hoping Hillary wins. A victory by the orange fascist is unthinkable.

Hillary does of course fit in very comfortably with our right wing parties.
 
Hillary does of course fit in very comfortably with our right wing parties.


She is what a modern conservative should look like imo. Although I think she'd be much more at home in the ALP rather than the Libs.

I find it hard to be objective about her because Trump is just so bad. There are a lot of things I just skim over... were she running against Kasich or something...


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Yeah it's kind of hard to say where Hillary would fall, whether she'd end up with Rudd on the ALP Right or with Turnbull as a moderate Lib.

Actually, you know where would (rather appropriately) suit her? The original, Don Chipp-era Democrats, before they became home to the people who are today's moderate Greens.
 
I'm not entirely sure Trumpists understand the damage that his refusal to accept the results does to the country and perceptions abroad.


Of course they don't.

Science, media, elections; it's all a rigged game. This is what gave us Trump in the first place.


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Yeah it's kind of hard to say where Hillary would fall, whether she'd end up with Rudd on the ALP Right or with Turnbull as a moderate Lib.

Actually, you know where would (rather appropriately) suit her? The original, Don Chipp-era Democrats, before they became home to the people who are today's moderate Greens.

I was almost going to say something like that. Definitely late seventies era Democrats. If she were born here she'd be a Don Chipp Girl.
 
There seems to be a bit of a logical failure here, wouldn't you have thought? You seem to be suggesting that conservatives are terrible if they vote for Trump, but that they're lovely people when they criticise Trump.


That's quite the simpleton take on what he or anyone's said.

I can't speak to how lovely they are, but it does seem to weed out those that are principled, or at least consistent. With the exception of mentioning that wall you've all been fantasizing about for decades, he's everything you've been railing against for the last 8 years. Everything you pretended Obama was, Donald is...



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When doing job interviews, you often come across the "yea, but" candidates. They have all the necessary job experience, knowledge and background; but there's a few red flags that give you pause. They're fine, but you'd really hope that a better candidate comes along. This is Hillary Clinton.

You also come across candidates where you read their resume, and you toss it out because the person is woefully unqualified for the specific position at hand. This is Donald Trump.

This is our choice.
 
Hilary Clinton's flaws should make everyone hate Trump even more, for not giving us a serious consideration.

Heck, for anyone who wanted an "outsider," you can hate Trump *even more* for ruining that idea.
 
It really should be pretty simple right?

Trump has ZERO experience. None. He's never governed. He doesn't have any education or work in law. He doesn't have any experience with foreign nations, other than celebrity/charity/golf events.

I do not understand why we would want someone with zero experience to run one of the most complex, powerful countries our society has ever seen. I get the anger and frustration, and general apathy towards our elected officials. If you're upset with your doctor, you don't ask for someone who's had no experience in medicine to treat you. You go to another doctor, even if there's a risk that they could be as bad as the previous one you went to.

I feel like this is what happens when we lose the art of compromise. Liberals and Conservatives cannot get a pure ideology passed when half the country doesn't agree to it. So where is the middle ground?

Until we find a way back to working with each other, I can't see the atmosphere really improving much. We'll still progress forward with Hillary, and that's primarily civil and human rights. I have no idea how the economy will do with her, but imagine it'll be somewhere between W and Obama. Peaks and Valleys.

I don't see her pushing us into another war, though it's looking like we could be going towards some sort of "chill war" with Russia, if we aren't already there. I lean towards her continuing the Drone program that Obama has used, and I'm still torn on that program. I do not see us invading other middle east countries, mainly because I think she's smart enough to learn from past mistakes, Libya, and treat the region a bit differently going forward.

I don't think it'd happen, but I'd love to see Military spending cut to free up spending on social and infrastructure programs. She has talked about fixing the problem areas of ACA, but I don't know if that would even happen if D's controlled both houses.

I am curious to see how her four years go before the next election.
 
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It really should be pretty simple right?

Trump has ZERO experience. None. He's never governed. He doesn't have any education or work in law. He doesn't have any experience with foreign nations, other than celebrity/charity/golf events.

I do not understand why we would want someone with zero experience to run one of the most complex, powerful countries our society has ever seen. I get the anger and frustration, and general apathy towards our elected officials. If you're upset with your doctor, you don't ask for someone who's had no experience in medicine to treat you. You go to another doctor, even if there's a risk that they could be as bad as the previous one you went to.

I feel like this is what happens when we lose the art of compromise. Liberals and Conservatives cannot get a pure ideology passed when half the country doesn't agree to it. So where is the middle ground?

Until we find a way back to working with each other, I can't see the atmosphere really improving much. We'll still progress forward with Hillary, and that's primarily civil and human rights. I have no idea how the economy will do with her, but imagine it'll be somewhere between W and Obama. Peaks and Valleys.

I don't see her pushing us into another war, though it's looking like we could be going towards some sort of "chill war" with Russia, if we aren't already there. I lean towards her continuing the Drone program that Obama has used, and I'm still torn on that program. I do not see us invading other middle east countries, mainly because I think she's smart enough to learn from past mistakes, Libya, and treat the region a bit differently going forward.

I don't think it'd happen, but I'd love to see Military spending cut to free up spending on social and infrastructure programs. She has talked about fixing the problem areas of ACA, but I don't know if that would even happen if D's controlled both houses.

I am curious to see how her four years go before the next election.
See... I would vote for a non politician businessperson as President. I don't believe you must be a career politician to do the job.

I don't disqualify Trump because he's not a politician. I disqualify him because he's a terrible businessman. He's a con man. I give him credit for that... he's great at being a con man. But he's a terrible businessman.

Then layer on the racism, sexism, xenophobia, outrageous and dangerous statements regarding foreign agents, nuclear weapons and the foundations of our democracy, and a temperament akin to that of a toddlee and you end up with the worst major party candidate in our history.

Hillary may indeed be corrupt. We'll find out soon enough. Donald Trump is the most dangerous presidential candidate in our history.
 
What did I miss? What were the hot points?


Clinton: "if I could get a minute to describe -- "
Trump: " -- you can't"
~Clinton continues speaking~

Waste of a debate, you missed nothing. It wasn't even funny this time. At this point I just want him to go away.
 
Really going to suck for the media and prognosticators a few cycles from now when a Democratic candidate with far less baggage and an even larger demographic advantage routinely starts the general election campaign ten points ahead nationally. That's literally a 99.99999999999999% chance of winning although the models will probably make it about 90% given that there would still be a few months for things to go wrong, I guess.

But, truth be told, 2012 felt like the last time Republicans could have had a prayer at winning this thing had some events and national situations leaned in their favor. Of course, then we had the unpleasant surprise of 2016. But, barring Clinton being an extremely disliked President and losing in 2020, there is absolutely no chance Republicans can ever win this thing again once 2024 rolls around. How can you win with an electorate that requires extremely high turnout just for you to reach 40% of the vote? There's no chance.

Clinton's current seven point advantage over Trump is about where you should have expected the race to end among your average Democrat and Republican candidate, so I guess the baggage of the two ultimately just ended up canceling each other out. The sad part is that she gained about a two point advantage just from demographic shifts alone over the last four years, so, all things considered, Trump is managing to run nearly as strong against her as Romney did with Obama. :huh:
 
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I'm not entirely sure Trumpists understand the damage that his refusal to accept the results does to the country and perceptions abroad.


really?

Trump conceded that he would accept the results — but without waiving his rights to challenge “a questionable result.”
“America is a constitutional republic with a system of laws. These laws are triggered in the case of fraud or in the event of a recount, where it’s needed,” Trump said. “Of course, I would accept a clear election result, but I would also reserve my right to contest or file a legal challenge in the case of a questionable result, right? And always, I will follow and abide by all of the rules and traditions of all of the many candidates who have come before me. Always.”


Read more: Trump: I’ll accept election results — ‘if I win’ - POLITICO
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook


The Democrats have a history of claiming rigged elections by the GOP

Obama's Sec of State, Kerry is at the top of the list

John Kerry Thinks Bush Rigged The 2004 Election | The Daily Caller

“For a long period, after 2004, every time he even half fell asleep all he saw was voting machines in the state of Ohio,” Mike Barnicle, a close friend of Kerry’s and a former columnist for the Boston Globe, told me. This summer, Barnicle spent time with Kerry on Nantucket, where Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz, have a house on the water and a seventy-six-foot, seven-million-dollar sailboat called Isabel. “We were sitting in the bow,” Barnicle recalled, “and we were talking about a bunch of different things—about Iran, about what the President of Iran was like—and I said, ‘Other than not being President, this is pretty good.’ There was a security boat sailing off to the side of us. Then he said, ‘Yeah, yeah, I realize how badly Shrum screwed me.’ ”

A few weeks ago, between Kerry’s trips to Europe and the Middle East, I had dinner with Kerry and Heinz at their house in Georgetown, a twenty-three-room mansion decorated with Early American portraits, Dutch still-lifes, and an amiable yellow Labrador retriever named Ben. (The Lab has the Twitter handle @DiploMutt.) I asked Kerry how long he carried around a sense of anger and resentment.

“I didn’t carry it,” he insisted. “I didn’t. I didn’t. My wife was mad at me that I didn’t carry it longer.”

From across the table, Teresa Heinz said, “I’m still carrying it.”

The Secretary of State looked up from his halibut. An ill wind of panic swept the oblong plain of his face. From the thick thatch of gray hair to the improbably long and thrusting chin, Kerry’s visage is immense and, in its implacable resting expression, resembles one of the monolithic heads that rise from the loam of Easter Island.

“Well, I’m not,” Kerry said.

His gaze turned to his wife, wordlessly imploring her to keep quiet. Heinz is seventy-seven, five years older than her husband, and, in 2013, she suffered a seizure that she has attributed to an earlier concussion “that was not properly treated at all.” It’s not easy for her to get around, and she appears infrequently at public events, but she spoke clearly and ardently throughout the evening, much as she had during the 2004 campaign.

She was not quite done. “I knew from looking at the . . .”

Kerry uses many terms of endearment for his wife; now he called her by the telegraphic “T.”

“T, let’s not go . . .” he said gently.

As she tried to speak again, he shut it down.

“T, T, we’re not . . . I didn’t want to spend time there,” he said. “I just consciously did not spend time there, and I moved on, and I moved on as rapidly as . . . It’s over. It’s behind me. . . . I could have done some things a little bit differently. We didn’t. But I’m not going to feel regret the rest of my life.”
 
There has been an unfortunate habit lately of justifying terrible actions solely by pointing to the terrible actions of others and the actions of those associated with them.

While that's hardly novel, it's bound to happen in such an overwhelmingly negative election cycle.
 
So if Trump is saying that today - that 'of course, I would accept a clear election result' - then why couldn't he say that on the debate stage last night?
 
That doesn't make for good reality tv


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Yeah, everybody I talk to in Australia and New Zealand, even those who vote for our right-wing parties, is basically crossing their fingers and hoping Hillary wins. A victory by the orange fascist is unthinkable.

A recent poll on the Irish Times site showed 25% support for Trump. A distinct minority, granted, but bear in mind almost all of the European mainstream media are against Trump.
 
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Oh, and how I do. So so much.

That idea is ruined for the foreseeable future.

I don't see it that way.

Your candidate struggled to beat an actual socialist, or if not that a left leaning social democrat. Trump is as you say officially disapproved of by the mainstream GOP.

This suggests things augur well for an 'outsider' candidate in 2020, if anything.
 
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