2008 U.S. Presidential Election: Vice-Presidential Debate

[Irvine511]

Let's make them rurals count for 3/5's of a vote.

there's too much to respond to, and it feels like this thread has moved on, but with the language coming out of the McCain campaign, the continued defense of George W Bush and Sarah Palin as "one of us," i think you'll see that the snobbery is coming out of the mouths of the "rurals" and is sent to wither the "elites" with words like "new york times" and, gosh, even "east coast" meant to be terms of derision.

if there's anyone who's made the case that anyone should count less, it's the rurals towards the "elites."

(even though we still have no idea what an elite is).

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, I've read your posts for quite some time and I know that you are far left and you're not moving toward the center anytime soon, so I will waste little time trying to explain rural values to you. Basically, they have a lot to do with "guns, god, and religion." They have to do a lot with personal responsibility and not waiting around for the government to solve problems through social welfare programs. They have to do with, according to a lifetime democrat-voting colleague who will be voting for McCain/Palin this year--that there is an abortion litmus test in todays democratic party that turns many people away.

(which your comments about "rural values" does seem a bit condescending.)

pot? kettle much?

A recent example is all the sudden bashing of anything "folksy.
The "betcha" and that sort of thing is in the common language where I live. Are we all too uneducated to be elected to high office because of the way we talk?

no, what most of us are reacting to is that she's pretending and amping up her folksiness and that it's inauthentic and made to pander. like when Hillary tried to come off like Annie Oakley and bowl and do shots of whiskey or when she would suddenly get a much different cadence to her words when she'd speak in a black church.

what i'm reacting to is inauthenticity, and i'm wondering why the "rurals" continue to buy it, and the question still stands: why vote these "values" instead of voting on the "issues." there's really not much question that, 1) Democrats are better for poor people and better for the economy, and 2) abortion isn't going anywhere anytime soon, no matter what the Republicans tell you.

so why continue to vote Republican if you are poor?

and, btw, though i've moved, i spent the last 4 years living in a neighborhood with people who are far poorer and probably less educated than you and your neighbors. or do they not count because they're the urban poor?

Simply put, people like Obama or Kerry are too far to the left for many in "rural america" to stomach.

why? because one is black and the other is smart? haven't we learned what happens when you put folksiness and "authenticity" (despite one having the bluest blood imaginable ... i suppose finding Jesus suddenly makes you authentic) ahead of basic competency -- you get the Bush presidency, two failed wars, economic collapse, and a major American city washes out to sea.

 

[bonoman]

haven't we learned what happens when you put folksiness and "authenticity" (despite one having the bluest blood imaginable ... i suppose finding Jesus suddenly makes you authentic) ahead of basic competency -- you get the Bush presidency, two failed wars, economic collapse, and a major American city washes out to sea.

OUCH!!!

 

[Irvine511]

OUCH!!!

i didn't even touch the erosion of civil liberties or the total destruction of the Justice Department.

 

[Strongbow]

you get the Bush presidency, two failed wars, economic collapse, and a major American city washes out to sea.

Well, lets compare the Bush Presidency to the Clinton Presidency on some key foreign policy and economic facts:


Clinton years: tried to go after Al Quada with some bombing efforts and police efforts, and did little damage to the network.

Bush years: invaded Afghanistan and successfully overthrew the Taliban government. Got Pakistan to reverse its support for the Taliban and capture hundreds of Al Quada members hiding in Pakistan. Captured and killed thousands of Al Quada members all over the world.


Clinton years: tried to enforce UN Security Council resolutions against Saddam's Iraq including heavily bombing the country. Efforts failed and UN inspectors were forced to leave and were not allowed back in. Efforts to enforce UN Security Council resolutions and completely disarm Saddam failed.

Bush years: Invaded Iraq and removed Saddam regime from power enforcing 17 UN Security Council resolutions against Iraq and insuring that Saddam's regime was disarmed.

Clinton years: left two hostile regimes in power in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Bush years: removed those regimes and replaced them with democratic governments.

Clinton years: Heavily cut defense spending to its lowest level as a percentage of GDP since 1939.

Bush years: increased defense spending, expanded the size of the military, and increased important research and development and procurement programs for modern weapon systems.


National Federal Debt as a percentage of GDP:

Clinton Years 64.5%

Bush Years 61.9%




Annual GDP growth rate:

Clinton Years 5.4%

Bush Years 4.8%




Annual Poverty Rate:

Clinton Years 13.3%

Bush Years 12.3%




Annual Inflation Rate:

Clinton Years 2.60%

Bush Years 2.69%




Annual Unemployment Rate:

Clinton Years 5.21%

Bush Years 5.20%






Two wars that have succeeded in removing grave threats to the United States and replaced threatening dictatorships with developing democracies. On economics, Bush years have roughly been the same as the Clinton years and better in some area's especially the poverty rate. No economic collapse at all based on the most important national macro-economic statistics. Instead, some of the best economic performance figures this country has ever seen rivaling the Clinton years.


But the greatest work of fiction above by Irvine is that a major American city has washed out to sea, and the Bush administration is at fault for it.

 

[anitram]

Serenity now.

 

[JOFO]

I love the irony of people like Strongbow's posts.

On a U2 forum.

It's the same with Springsteen republicans. It's gotta just eat away at them knowing the artists they must enjoy so much share the opposite political views.

Same with the Pearl Jam frat boy republican fans.

Oh, it's so fantastic.


Strongbow: pump your fists in the air at your next u2 concert when they play "Pride" and remember that McCain voted against making his Bday a national holiday.

Enjoy.

 

[Dreadsox]

I love the irony of people like Strongbow's posts.

On a U2 forum.

It's the same with Springsteen republicans. It's gotta just eat away at them knowing the artists they must enjoy so much share the opposite political views.

Same with the Pearl Jam frat boy republican fans.

Oh, it's so fantastic.


Strongbow: pump your fists in the air at your next u2 concert when they play "Pride" and remember that McCain voted against making his Bday a national holiday.

Enjoy.

One of the things I love about Bono is he understands that it takes all kinds to accomplish what needs to be done.

As for McCain - he has made statements about that vote - and I believe he is sincere when he says it was a mistake.

 

[JOFO]

Yes, he's very sincere. Did you know he was a war hero?

BTW, it seems as though he's sent his pit bull from Alaska to stoke the racial fires:

Analysis: Palin's words may backfire on McCain - Yahoo! News

 

[Dreadsox]

Sting's observation of Biden's mistatement of facts is well taken.

I find it ludicrous though, his implication that only Democratic politicians engage in this kind of dishonesty. The Republicans always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Is that it?

Fact is, they all distort and play with the facts. This argument that my guy doesn't lie or tells less fibs ect....is such BS. And it happens on both sides, but we look at our guy through a filtration system based on bias.

 

[VintagePunk]

I love the irony of people like Strongbow's posts.

On a U2 forum.

It's the same with Springsteen republicans. It's gotta just eat away at them knowing the artists they must enjoy so much share the opposite political views.

Same with the Pearl Jam frat boy republican fans.

Oh, it's so fantastic.


Strongbow: pump your fists in the air at your next u2 concert when they play "Pride" and remember that McCain voted against making his Bday a national holiday.

Enjoy.

I don't really think one's political views has an impact on whether or not one can be a fan of the band. I'm agnostic, and I'm a huge fan. I don't roll my eyes when Bono talks about faith or God. To be a fan, you don't have to adopt every belief of a band or performer you admire.

 

[Strongbow]

I love the irony of people like Strongbow's posts.

On a U2 forum.

It's the same with Springsteen republicans. It's gotta just eat away at them knowing the artists they must enjoy so much share the opposite political views.

Same with the Pearl Jam frat boy republican fans.

Oh, it's so fantastic.


Strongbow: pump your fists in the air at your next u2 concert when they play "Pride" and remember that McCain voted against making his Bday a national holiday.

Enjoy.

Many of U2's spiritual and religious writing has much more in common with those that are Republicans rather than many of the louder voices in the Democratic party who tend to dismiss, question or avoid religion. Being a multi-national corporation themselves, they are certainly more supportive of free trade than many in the Democratic party have been. They are not in favor of high taxes on the rich as seen by the move of many of their assets to the Netherlands to avoid increased taxes. While I'm sure they are in favor of alternative energy, I'm sure they would not support many of the more extreme energy proposals that would increase fuel cost or prevent them from touring in the manner they have toured over the past few decades. Unlike many Democrats, they are not pacifist, and supported wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. They also honor and respect the US military unlike many of the more extreme elements of the Democratic party.

 

[anitram]

First of all, who cares what U2 thinks.

Second, what is this "they" - I'm sorry but if you can elucidate Larry's views on these matters, I'd love to hear them. Or Adam's.

 

[JOFO]

Many of U2's spiritual and religious writing has much more in common with those that are Republicans rather than many of the louder voices in the Democratic party who tend to dismiss, question or avoid religion. Being a multi-national corporation themselves, they are certainly more supportive of free trade than many in the Democratic party have been. They are not in favor of high taxes on the rich as seen by the move of many of their assets to the Netherlands to avoid increased taxes. While I'm sure they are in favor of alternative energy, I'm sure they would not support many of the more extreme energy proposals that would increase fuel cost or prevent them from touring in the manner they have toured over the past few decades. Unlike many Democrats, they are not pacifist, and supported wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. They also honor and respect the US military unlike many of the more extreme elements of the Democratic party.

Oh I get it; you're insane.

 

[Dreadsox]

Yes, he's very sincere. Did you know he was a war hero?

BTW, it seems as though he's sent his pit bull from Alaska to stoke the racial fires:

Analysis: Palin's words may backfire on McCain - Yahoo! News

Maybe they will.

Its one of the thins I do not like about Obama. I think some of his associations are questionable. If you believe that questioning the associations with people that most mainstream Americans would consider quite radical is a racial thing, I think you are wrong.

Do you have proof that somehow McCain did not mean what he said?

Are republicans not allowed to be U2 fans in your book?

 

[Dreadsox]

Oh I get it; you're insane.

Yep, namecalling really proves your point.

Any chance you have anything factual to counter STINgs points, or is it all personal with you?

 

[jesseu2]

Don't know where to post this but its related, lol... friend told me.

YOU NEW IT WAS COMING: NEW MOVIE “NAILIN’ PALIN”

Don’t act suprised. From the same people that brought you, ‘School of **** and The Sopornos, comes the latest soon-to-be-masterpiece, “Nailin’ Paylin’.”

GOP VP Nom, Gov. Sarah Palin will be played by pornstar, Lisa Ann, who “will be nailing the Russians who come knocking on her back-door.” In another scene — a flashback — “young Paylin’s creationist college professor will explain a ‘big bang’ theory even she can’t deny!”

The filmmakers are banging hard to get the movie out before November 4th.

FlyStyleLife ? YOU NEW IT WAS COMING: NEW MOVIE “NAILIN’ PALIN”

 

[corianderstem]

Um ..... looks nothing like her?

I don't know what else to say. Not surprising that porn jumped in on the Palin Media Circus ride, I guess.

 

[purpleoscar]

This is the reason why most people prefer to avoid political careers.

 

[Strongbow]

First of all, who cares what U2 thinks.

Second, what is this "they" - I'm sorry but if you can elucidate Larry's views on these matters, I'd love to hear them. Or Adam's.

What exactly do you believe Adam or Larry would disagree with? Even though Adam may not be religious or at least was not in the past, he certainly would not disagree with the spiritual and religious influence in U2's lyrics. Adam has been quoted as saying that "God was walking through the room" on the Elevation tour.

 

[anitram]

Well given that Larry was spotted and photographed in those anti-war rallies, I am not so sure you can lump him in with Bono's views on war. For one.

 

[Strongbow]

Well given that Larry was spotted and photographed in those anti-war rallies, I am not so sure you can lump him in with Bono's views on war. For one.

That was for the war in Iraq. I never stated that any member of U2 was for the war in Iraq.

 

[Se7en]

Many of U2's spiritual and religious writing has much more in common with those that are Republicans rather than many of the louder voices in the Democratic party who tend to dismiss, question or avoid religion. Being a multi-national corporation themselves, they are certainly more supportive of free trade than many in the Democratic party have been. They are not in favor of high taxes on the rich as seen by the move of many of their assets to the Netherlands to avoid increased taxes. While I'm sure they are in favor of alternative energy, I'm sure they would not support many of the more extreme energy proposals that would increase fuel cost or prevent them from touring in the manner they have toured over the past few decades. Unlike many Democrats, they are not pacifist, and supported wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. They also honor and respect the US military unlike many of the more extreme elements of the Democratic party.

one might have been able to argue against this 10-15 years ago, but at this point i think STING is pretty much dead-on.

 

[anitram]

Fine. Find me a quote by Larry where he said he was a pacifist. I mean, you're free to assume he's not, but given that the man barely speaks and I usually pay attention when he does, I'd like to hear it.

 

[financeguy]

Serenity now.

You know, I fundamentally disagree with the idea of ignore lists but, over my nigh on 4 years posting here, STING2/Strongbow is, time and time again, the single poster that comes closest to christening mine.

 

[Strongbow]

Fine. Find me a quote by Larry where he said he was a pacifist.

Well, I don't think that he considers himself to be a pacifist. I certainly have not seen him express opposition to US military intervention in Afghanistan, Bosnia, or Kosovo. The band was heavily involved in trying to inform people about what was happening in Bosnia and were angry that initially the world was not acting in a way that could solve the problem, which would have been through military intervention.

 

[anitram]

Well likewise we haven't seen him speak in public about it which is why I opposed your "they" this and "they" that.

I give up.

 

[financeguy]

Many of U2's spiritual and religious writing has much more in common with those that are Republicans rather than many of the louder voices in the Democratic party who tend to dismiss, question or avoid religion.

Much as, being a non-believer, I would not usually consider defending Democrat Christians as being within my area of remit, your statement is demonstrably false, and utterly contradicts every single thing U2 have said regarding their faith.

 

[namkcuR]

Yeah, that statement conveniently overlooks U2's entire 90s output, which was far more about questioning faith than it ever was about embracing it, something many hard-core conservative Christians would not like.

U2's faith has - at least from the perspective of the public looking in - always, ALWAYS, been a very tolerant brand of personal faith and religion that had little interest in passing judgement on anyone else's faith or lack thereof.

 

[financeguy]

U2's views on the Iraq war are fairly clear.

It is true that they are not claiming to be pacifists, but in the Dec 2004/Jan 2005 issue of NME, several members of U2 condemned the Iraq war, and Bono stated his opinion, without reservation, that the whole rush to war was based on nothing but spin and lies.

So, in other words, Bono thinks that Sting2 is at best a spinmongerer, at worst a liar.