2008 U.S. Presidential Election: First Debate

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Despite what I thought was pretty much a draw last night, no big mistakes from either of them, but no crushing blows either, it seems that many pundits gave a slight edge to McCain, while initial polls done by media companies gave a fairly decent lead to Obama, most notably, among undecideds.

One thing I do expect is that Obama will come out stronger in the next one. I think that he has the ability to adapt a little better than McCain, whereas McCain is stuck in that more rigid 'stay the course' style. He can pull out big surprises from his political bag of tricks as shown by his selection of Palin, and the "suspension" of his campaign, but I'm not convinced he's capable of this on a more subtle level, one that would enable his clear win of a debate.
 
What I found from the debate is the total different way mccain and obama speak. Obama always seems calm and fresh, not like he is trotting out the messages, i like his little stammering he sometimes has.

Mccain comes across as the drunk uncle that heehaws his way through christmas pulling coins out of your ear and wanting to give you pony rides on his lap. He is smarmy, condescending, does the who 'huuuh huuuh' beavis thing whenever obama says something he disagrees with. He is like one of the old boys that would get down and dirty and Obama just seems to be miles above him in decorum.

lovely Obama :heart: such a polite, articulate, intelligent man. We need one of those after suffering with a dimwit for so long.
 
That was rational:hmm:

I'm sorry but selective editing like that does not prove anything! Every time Obama agreed with McCain, he went "You're absolutely right but...". Everything after the but has been conveniently cut out. How cheap! The McCain campaign sure seems to spend a lot of energy and money in making ads to bash Obama but I don't see the same childish attacks from the other side. The American people better wake up and recognize who is the more mature, calm and level headed candidate here.
 
I'm sorry but selective editing like that does not prove anything! Every time Obama agreed with McCain, he went "You're absolutely right but...". Everything after the but has been conveniently cut out. How cheap! The McCain campaign sure seems to spend a lot of energy and money in making ads to bash Obama but I don't see the same childish attacks from the other side. The American people better wake up and recognize who is the more mature, calm and level headed candidate here.

If that's the best he's got, there's not much to worry about. Polls are showing strongly that voters are heavily turned off by going negative this campaign, unlike other campaigns where it did work, unfortunately. That ad may speak to the base, but it's a mistake to run it if he's looking to sway undecideds. If his campaign insiders were smart, they'd take note and lay off. So far, they seem to be lacking in the smarts.
 
What I found from the debate is the total different way mccain and obama speak. Obama always seems calm and fresh, not like he is trotting out the messages, i like his little stammering he sometimes has.

Mccain comes across as the drunk uncle that heehaws his way through christmas pulling coins out of your ear and wanting to give you pony rides on his lap. He is smarmy, condescending, does the who 'huuuh huuuh' beavis thing whenever obama says something he disagrees with. He is like one of the old boys that would get down and dirty and Obama just seems to be miles above him in decorum.

lovely Obama :heart: such a polite, articulate, intelligent man. We need one of those after suffering with a dimwit for so long.


+1,000,000


:up:
 
the CNN Poll:


Regardless of which candidate you happen to support, who do you think did the best job in the debate -- Barack Obama or John McCain?
Obama 51%
McCain 38%
Did _______ do a better or worse job than you expected?
Obama: Better 57%, Worse 20%, Same 23%
McCain: Better 60%, Worse 20%, Same 18%

Next, regardless of which presidential candidate you support, please tell me if you think Barack Obama or John McCain would better handle each of the following issues:

• The war in Iraq: Obama 52%, McCain 47%

• Terrorism: McCain 49%, Obama 45%

• The economy: Obama 58%, McCain 37%

• The current financial crisis: Obama 54%, McCain 36%

Thinking about the following characteristics and qualities, please say whether you think each one better described Barack Obama or John McCain during tonight's debate:

• Was more intelligent: Obama 55%, McCain 30%

• Expressed his views more clearly: Obama 53%, McCain 36%

• Spent more time attacking his opponent: McCain 60%, Obama 23%

• Was more sincere and authentic: Obama 46%, McCain 38%

• Seemed to be the stronger leader: Obama 49%, McCain 43%

• Was more likeable: Obama 61%, McCain 26%

• Was more in touch with the needs and problems of people like you: Obama 62%, McCain 32%

Based on what _______ said and did in tonight's debate, do you think he would be able to handle the job of president if he is elected?
Obama 69%-29%
McCain 68%-30%
 
1- I'm not sure why everyone is so quick to say that McCain was condescending or rude but make no mention of Obama also interrupting several times or constantly addressing him as "John" the entire debate. I didn't find that very respectful, but I'm sure someone will defend it as perfectly fine.

He has a right to interrupt when McCain is telling a lie about his position. And coworkers and colleagues frequently address each other by first name.

One thing I do expect is that Obama will come out stronger in the next one.

Definitely - Obama blows away McCain on domestic issues, which the future debates will focus more heavily on. It's going to be an uphill battle for McCain in the other debates.

Obama/Biden 301 McCain/Palin 237


In other words, a landslide win for Obama :D.
 
after a while of watching, i got kind of bored -- it seemed they were just restating their differences, and i already know what those are. no one was awful, no one was great.

McCain needed something big to happen here to get back into this race, and i don't think that happened, although he didn't take himself completely out by falling on his sword or anything.

the real fun will be next week. :up:
 
i still want to know why a woman gets on an 8 hour flight after her water broke.

or are we not allowed to ask non-deferential questions because, please, it's sexist.

Because her doctor gave her permission -- because this was her fifth pregnancy so she knew the difference between minor contractions and signs of active labor.

But your newfound concern for the unborn is most welcome.
 
Because her doctor gave her permission -- because this was her fifth pregnancy so she knew the difference between minor contractions and signs of active labor.


seems irresponsible of the doctor.


But your newfound concern for the unborn is most welcome.


i am very glad that Trigg was born to a family that wanted to love and care for him.
 
Because her doctor gave her permission -- because this was her fifth pregnancy so she knew the difference between minor contractions and signs of active labor.

False. the doctor was quoted in Anchorage Daily News as saying she wasn't asked for permission to travel:

http://www.adn.com/626/story/382864.html

Early Thursday -- she thinks it was around 4 a.m. Texas time -- she consulted with her doctor, family physician Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who is based in the Valley and has delivered lots of babies, including Piper, Palin's 7-year-old.

Palin said she felt fine but had leaked amniotic fluid and also felt some contractions that seemed different from the false labor she had been having for months.

"I said I am going to stay for the day. I have a speech I was determined to give," Palin said. She gave the luncheon keynote address for the energy conference.

Palin kept in close contact with Baldwin-Johnson. The contractions slowed to one or two an hour, "which is not active labor," the doctor said.

"Things were already settling down when she talked to me," Baldwin-Johnson said. Palin did not ask for a medical OK to fly, the doctor said.

"I don't think it was unreasonable for her to continue to travel back," Baldwin-Johnson said.

She did say it wasn't unreasonable to travel, but what was she going to say? That it was highly irresponsible? Come on. What she did say is not phrased in a way that implies resounding support.


In addition, every labour is different, so it doesn't matter how many children she had in the past - 5 or 55. The fact is, she was about to give birth to a premature infant with special needs. She was highly stupid and irresponsible to take such risks.
 
a post-debate CBS poll. it's a PDF, which i don't know how to source.


UNCOMMITTED VOTERS AND THE DEBATE: OBAMA WINS ON ECONOMY,
MCCAIN WINS ON IRAQ
September 26, 2008

The first presidential debate helped uncommitted voters learn about
the candidates – and it appears that Democrat Barack Obama benefited
the most. Uncommitted voters said Obama won the debate against
McCain, and more of those voters improved their opinion of the
Democrat. But while 66% think Obama would make the right decisions
about the economy, 56% think John McCain would do so about Iraq.

Immediately after the debate, CBS News interviewed a nationally
representative sample of nearly 500 debate watchers assembled by
Knowledge Networks who were “uncommitted voters” – voters who are
either undecided about who to vote for or who say they could still
change their minds. 39% of these uncommitted debate watchers said
Obama won the debate. 24% said McCain won, and another 37% thought it
was a tie.

WHO WON THE DEBATE?
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)
Obama 39%
McCain 24
Tie 37

Nearly half of those uncommitted voters who watched the debate said
that their image of Obama changed for the better as a result. Just 8%
say their opinion of Obama got worse, and 46% reported no change in
their opinions.

THE DEBATE’S EFFECT ON OPINIONS OF THE CANDIDATES
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)
Obama McCain
Better 46% 32%
Worse 8 21
No change 46 47

McCain saw less improvement in his image. 32% have improved their
image of McCain as a result of the debate, but 21% said their views of
him are now worse than before.

Why did voters’ image of Obama improve? Many volunteered that they
were impressed by his poise and knowledge about the issues, that he
was more knowledgeable about the issues than they thought previously.
When it came to John McCain, those same voters said he “didn’t control himself well under pressure”, that he was “angry and bad-tempered”,
and that he “talked too much about the past”.

On the other hand, voters who thought McCain won the debate felt he
showed more experience and understanding of the issues – particularly
foreign policy. Many felt he exceeded their expectations in how he
presented himself tonight, saying he was a “better debater” and a
“skilled speaker.”

Although much of this debate addressed foreign policy issues, the
candidates talked about the economy for about 30 minutes – which is
after all what voters say is their most important concern.
Uncommitted debate watchers saw Barack Obama as the clear winner on
handling the economy; 66% felt he would make the right decisions about
the economy, while 42% felt McCain would do so.

WOULD MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS ABOUT THE ECONOMY
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)
Obama McCain
Yes 66% 42%
No 33 57

But when it came to the war in Iraq, McCain was the stronger
candidate. Before the debate, 44% said that McCain would make the
right decisions about the war; that rose to 56% after the debate.
Fewer thought Obama would make the right decisions on Iraq.

WOULD MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS ABOUT THE WAR IN IRAQ
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)
Obama McCain
Pre-debate Post-debate Pre-debate Post-debate
Yes 44% 48% 44% 56%
No 53 51 53 43

Both candidates made some gains in presenting their respective visions
for the country. 65% said that Obama made it clear what he would do
as president; 64% said that of his rival, McCain.

MADE IT CLEAR WHAT HE WOULD DO AS PRESIDENT
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)
Obama McCain
Pre-debate Post-debate Pre-debate Post-debate
Yes 37% 65% 36% 64%
No 61 35 62 35

In national polls of registered voters overall, one of McCain’s
strengths has been the perception that he is ready for the presidency,
while Obama’s has been the perception that he is empathetic to voters’
needs. Uncommitted voters who watched the debate share those
perceptions.

OBAMA AND MCCAIN QUALITIES
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)
Obama McCain
Pre- Post Pre Post-
Debate debate debate debate
Is prepared to be president
Yes 44% 60% 79% 78%
No 53 39 20 21

Understands your needs
and problems
Yes 58% 79% 36% 41%
No 40 21 64 58

But while eight in 10 uncommitted voters who watched the debate think
McCain is prepared to be president, six in 10 now think Obama is
prepared as well – a significant improvement from his standing among
these same voters before the debate. The percentage of watchers who
think Obama understands their needs and problems has also increased by
21 points, while a majority still say McCain does not.

Uncommitted voters include those who say they have a preference, but
also say they could still change their minds. Before the debate, 36%
favored Obama and 34% favored McCain. Obama now leads by 12 points
among uncommitted debate watchers -- 41% to 29% -- in their choice for
president in November. But nearly three in 10 remain undecided, and
most of those with a choice now say their minds could still change.

PRESIDENTIAL PREFERENCE AMONG DEBATE WATCHERS
(Among uncommitted voters who watched debate)
Pre-debate Post-debate
Obama 36% 41%
McCain 34 29
Someone else 1 1
Depends 29 29
__________________________________________________________________

This CBS News poll was conducted online by Knowledge Networks among a
nationwide random sample of 483 uncommitted voters – voters who don’t yet
know who they will vote for, or who have chosen a candidate but may still
change their minds – who have agreed to watch the debate. Knowledge
Networks, a Silicon Valley company, conducted the poll among a sample of
adult members of its household panel, a nationally representative sample
given access to the Internet via Web TV. The questions were administered
using the Internet.

This is a scientifically representative poll of undecided voters’ reaction to
the presidential debate. The margin of sampling error could be plus or minus
4 percentage points for results based on the entire sample.
 
The key number I keep seeing is that people believe that Obama understands people's problems and McCain doesn't. Which I think is an accurate reflection of the two.
 
McCain also did quite poorly with women last night based on the immediate polling.

I think it was his refusal to look Obama in the eye, his sneering and strange giggling at times that comes across very condescending. Female focus groups tend to react more to negative tone and body language, it really is quite an accurate predictor, so I can't say that I'm surprised.

I remember very well back when we were interviewing for jobs in law school, they set up training sessions on how to properly interview. And one trainer was absolutely excellent and she said, look I can point to study after study that tells you that there is nothing better at preventing you from getting an offer from a female lawyer or executive than when you interview with a man and a woman, you choose to speak to the man or not make continuous eye contact with the woman. I have always felt that women were more keenly aware of such a snub so I think that McCain's persistent refusal to even so much as look at Obama, much less speak to him directly, is really, really off-putting to female viewers because it comes across as very patronizing.
 
GRADING THE DEBATE:

John McCain:

Substance: His arguments were hard to follow at the beginning, but he found his voice as the debate progressed, although he never seemed fully in control of his message. He had plenty to say about the economy, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Russia, but often bogged down his own answers when trying to unfurl quips and soundbites. Stuck with bumper sticker slogans on the economy, and while he got a bit more detailed on foreign policy, he stayed at his usual level of abstraction. If he truly knows more about the world than Obama, he didn't show it in this debate.


Grade: B-


Style: Cluttered, jumpy, and often muddled. Frequent coughing early on helped neither his arguments nor his image. Jokes about being deaf and anecdotes about Normandy and George Shultz seemed ill-advised - even his pen was old. His presentation was further hindered by his wandering discussion of the differing heights of North and South Koreans and his angry assertion about how well he knows Henry Kissinger. Fell into the classic politician's trap of inserting familiar stump speech applause lines into debate responses - which only works if done with enthusiasm and clarity (and if received by applause - a big No-No in Lehrer's auditorium, which the audience obeyed seriously and silently). Keenly aware of the grand, grave occasion, McCain wavered between respectful and domineering, and ended up awkward and edgy.


Grade: C-


Offense: Emphasized his bread and butter issues of taxes and spending, and hit Obama on his failure to visit Iraq and his expressed willingness to meet with dictators. But while mocking his opponent on a few occasions, which reflected his acute disrespect for Obama, he did so in an insufficiently sharp and detailed manner - and unevenly worked elements of his rival's record into his attacks. Still he was utterly confident about his own experience, knowledge, and policies, even when tripped by his own tongue and distracted by the strains of debate practice. The main problem: Obama's obvious preparation and sharp answers contradicted McCain's frequent claims that the Democrat was uninformed and "didn't understand" key issues.


Grade: C+


Defense: He managed to ignore most of Obama's jibes, but was eventually baited into giving an extended answer about his policy differences with President Bush, after his opponent repeatedly mentioned McCain's regular support of Bush's budgets. Was visibly riled when clashing with Obama over a variety of issues, including Iraq, sanctions, and spending. He also chose to boast about Sarah Palin (although not by name) as his maverick partner, who, after her shaky week, may no longer be his ace in the hole.


Grade: B-


Overall: McCain was McCain - evocative, intense, and at times emotional, but also vague, elliptical, and atonal. Failed to deliver his "country first versus Obama first" message cleanly, even when offered several opportunities. Surprisingly, did not talk much about "change," virtually ceding the dominant issue of the race.


Overall grade: B-



Barack Obama:


Substance: Quite manifestly immersed in the past, present, and future details of policy, and eager to express his views, which have been expanded, honed, and solidified during the last 18 months of hard campaigning. Still, he did avoid the nitty-gritty details of policy positions in favor of broad principles and references to working Americans, thereby not presenting the kind of specifics that some voters are waiting to hear from him.


Grade: B+


Style: Polished, confident, focused. Fully prepared, and able to convey a real depth of knowledge on nearly every issue. He was unhurried, and rarely lost his train of thought even when the debate wended and winded - and uttered far fewer of his trademark, distracting, "ums." At times, however, Obama revealed the level of his preparation by faltering over a rehearsed answer. He seemed to deliberately focus on the moderator and the home audience, with McCain as an afterthought - except when on the attack. Chose to avoid humor, for the most part, in favor of a stern demeanor, and in the process, came off as cool as a cucumber.


Grade: A


Offense: Linking McCain to Bush in his very first answer, he kept it up as his primary line of attack. Forcefully hit McCain for his early support of the Iraq War. Though he never drew blood, he did keep McCain a bit off balance, often with clever references to McCain's recent statements.

Grade: B

Defense: Had a reasonable answer for every charge that came his way - with little anger, bluster, or anxiety. Often interrupting McCain attacks with swift explanations and comebacks, he managed to spin accusations of being liberal as evidence of his relentless opposition to George Bush (in replies that were clearly planned). Offered a rather clumsy alternative to McCain's well-known, moving story of wearing the bracelet of a soldier lost in Iraq (a gift from the soldier's mother), with a story about a bracelet of his own. Fearless, without condescension, he attempted the gracious move of agreeing with or complimenting a McCain position, occasionally to his own detriment.

Grade: A-

Overall: Went for a solid, consistent performance to introduce himself to the country. He did not seem nervous, tentative, or intimidated by the event, and avoided mistakes from his weak debate performances during nomination season (a professorial tone and long winded answers). Standing comfortably on the stage with his rival, he showed he belonged - evocative of Reagan, circa 1980. He was so confident by the end that he reminded his biggest audience yet that his father was from Kenya. Two more performances like that and he will be very tough to beat on Election Day.

Overall grade: A-
 
GRADING THE DEBATE:

John McCain:

Substance: His arguments were hard to follow at the beginning, but he found his voice as the debate progressed, although he never seemed fully in control of his message. He had plenty to say about the economy, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Russia, but often bogged down his own answers when trying to unfurl quips and soundbites. Stuck with bumper sticker slogans on the economy, and while he got a bit more detailed on foreign policy, he stayed at his usual level of abstraction. If he truly knows more about the world than Obama, he didn't show it in this debate.


Grade: B-


Style: Cluttered, jumpy, and often muddled. Frequent coughing early on helped neither his arguments nor his image. Jokes about being deaf and anecdotes about Normandy and George Shultz seemed ill-advised - even his pen was old. His presentation was further hindered by his wandering discussion of the differing heights of North and South Koreans and his angry assertion about how well he knows Henry Kissinger. Fell into the classic politician's trap of inserting familiar stump speech applause lines into debate responses - which only works if done with enthusiasm and clarity (and if received by applause - a big No-No in Lehrer's auditorium, which the audience obeyed seriously and silently). Keenly aware of the grand, grave occasion, McCain wavered between respectful and domineering, and ended up awkward and edgy.


Grade: C-


Offense: Emphasized his bread and butter issues of taxes and spending, and hit Obama on his failure to visit Iraq and his expressed willingness to meet with dictators. But while mocking his opponent on a few occasions, which reflected his acute disrespect for Obama, he did so in an insufficiently sharp and detailed manner - and unevenly worked elements of his rival's record into his attacks. Still he was utterly confident about his own experience, knowledge, and policies, even when tripped by his own tongue and distracted by the strains of debate practice. The main problem: Obama's obvious preparation and sharp answers contradicted McCain's frequent claims that the Democrat was uninformed and "didn't understand" key issues.


Grade: C+


Defense: He managed to ignore most of Obama's jibes, but was eventually baited into giving an extended answer about his policy differences with President Bush, after his opponent repeatedly mentioned McCain's regular support of Bush's budgets. Was visibly riled when clashing with Obama over a variety of issues, including Iraq, sanctions, and spending. He also chose to boast about Sarah Palin (although not by name) as his maverick partner, who, after her shaky week, may no longer be his ace in the hole.


Grade: B-


Overall: McCain was McCain - evocative, intense, and at times emotional, but also vague, elliptical, and atonal. Failed to deliver his "country first versus Obama first" message cleanly, even when offered several opportunities. Surprisingly, did not talk much about "change," virtually ceding the dominant issue of the race.


Overall grade: B-



Barack Obama:


Substance: Quite manifestly immersed in the past, present, and future details of policy, and eager to express his views, which have been expanded, honed, and solidified during the last 18 months of hard campaigning. Still, he did avoid the nitty-gritty details of policy positions in favor of broad principles and references to working Americans, thereby not presenting the kind of specifics that some voters are waiting to hear from him.


Grade: B+


Style: Polished, confident, focused. Fully prepared, and able to convey a real depth of knowledge on nearly every issue. He was unhurried, and rarely lost his train of thought even when the debate wended and winded - and uttered far fewer of his trademark, distracting, "ums." At times, however, Obama revealed the level of his preparation by faltering over a rehearsed answer. He seemed to deliberately focus on the moderator and the home audience, with McCain as an afterthought - except when on the attack. Chose to avoid humor, for the most part, in favor of a stern demeanor, and in the process, came off as cool as a cucumber.


Grade: A


Offense: Linking McCain to Bush in his very first answer, he kept it up as his primary line of attack. Forcefully hit McCain for his early support of the Iraq War. Though he never drew blood, he did keep McCain a bit off balance, often with clever references to McCain's recent statements.

Grade: B

Defense: Had a reasonable answer for every charge that came his way - with little anger, bluster, or anxiety. Often interrupting McCain attacks with swift explanations and comebacks, he managed to spin accusations of being liberal as evidence of his relentless opposition to George Bush (in replies that were clearly planned). Offered a rather clumsy alternative to McCain's well-known, moving story of wearing the bracelet of a soldier lost in Iraq (a gift from the soldier's mother), with a story about a bracelet of his own. Fearless, without condescension, he attempted the gracious move of agreeing with or complimenting a McCain position, occasionally to his own detriment.

Grade: A-

Overall: Went for a solid, consistent performance to introduce himself to the country. He did not seem nervous, tentative, or intimidated by the event, and avoided mistakes from his weak debate performances during nomination season (a professorial tone and long winded answers). Standing comfortably on the stage with his rival, he showed he belonged - evocative of Reagan, circa 1980. He was so confident by the end that he reminded his biggest audience yet that his father was from Kenya. Two more performances like that and he will be very tough to beat on Election Day.

Overall grade: A-

It should be pointed out that MARK HALPERIN, the person who wrote the above piece, is a well known liberal.
 
It should be pointed out that MARK HALPERIN, the person who wrote the above piece, is a well known liberal.

Because he said Bush used more election-altering distortions than Kerry?

Maybe, just maybe, he said that because he believed it was true.
 
Time Magazine:

McCain was seen as the more negative of the two—by 7 points before the debate and by 26 points after. The audience did not like it when he went after Obama for being "naïve" or used his oft-repeated "what Senator Obama doesn't understand" line. When the two clashed directly in the second half of the debate, with Obama repeatedly protesting McCain's characterization of his statements or positions, the voter dials went down. Voters appear to have judged McCain too negative in those encounters and Obama more favorably.

Sounds about right.
 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned:

"So let me get this straight," McCain said, still on the attack, "you sit down with Ahmadinejad and he says, 'We're going to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth,' and you say, 'No, you're not.' Oh, please."

I thought that was the most condesending statement of the debates. John McCain seems to think that he is the only one that has the experience and knowledge to lead the country.

Obama, i thought, should have hit him twice:

1) When McCain mentioned Ireland and their low business tax, Obama should have cut him off and pointed out the fact the Ireland is in a recision. Would have made McCain look like he does'nt know what he's talking about and probably would have shut him up.

2) After McCain had said all night that Obama "doesn't understand", at some point Obama should have just said out right that he does understand and that America knows that he understands the issues. It would have been seen as Obama sticking up for himself, probably would have made 60% of the audience kinda cheer or pump a fist. There is nothing worse then speaking down to people, as evidence in the polls, and Obama could have taken the opputunity to look strong.

But all in all not a bad debate. Obama did enough to not look scary, which in his books should be a win.

Now, Oct 2 is gonna be the fun one to watch. But ask youself this: If Biden rips her apart does she get the sympathy of the people? I'm trying to be sexist, but the fact is the average person doesn't like to see a man beat up on a woman. Biden doesn't want to come off as being an asshole, and it won't be hard, considering Palins obvious lack of knowledge on pretty much everything.
 
^I think Biden will certainly treat her with a lot more respect than McCain showed Obama last night. However, the reaction I've been getting from nearly everyone I've talked to, is that they're sick of excuses being made for Palin, and they want to see if she can stand on her own two feet when there's no one around to help her. Most of the Independent/Undecideds clearly thought McCain was condescending and arrogant last night, not because of the thoughts they might have on his knowledge level compared to Obama's, but because of the way he addressed Obama. I think if, for some reason, we see Biden treat Palin similar to the way McCain treated Obama last night, he'll have a problem. If he demonstrates his far superior intelligence and depth of nuance and understanding of the issues, while still showing he respects Palin, he'll do exactly what a VP candidate is supposed to do in a debate: He'll show why he is clearly far more qualified and equipped to be second in command.
 
If he demonstrates his far superior intelligence and depth of nuance and understanding of the issues, while still showing he respects Palin, he'll do exactly what a VP candidate is supposed to do in a debate: He'll show why he is clearly far more qualified and equipped to be second in command.

Thats what I'm talking about. Even if he kills her on substance you are still going to have loads of people that are going to make him out to be an asshole. Thats the unfortunate side of being a man. It's sad but true.
 
speaking of starting to feel sorry (or not) for Sarah, here's quite a post from one of The Atlantic's columnists:


I've been thinking a lot about this nomination and rewatching the videos of Palin's interview. Honestly, it's all made me tremendously sad. There are lot of us lefties who are guffawing right now and are happy to see Palin seemingly stumbling drunkenly from occasional interview to occasional interview. I may have been one of them. But I'm out of that group now.

The Palin pick was the most crassest, most bigoted decision that I've seen in national electoral politics, in my--admittedly short--lifetime. There can be no doubt that they picked Palin strictly as a stick to drum up the victimhood narrative--small town, hunters, big families and most importantly, women. Had Barack Obama picked Hillary Clinton, there simply is no way they would have picked Sarah Palin. To the McCain camp, Palin isn't important as a politician, or even as a person. Her moose-hunting, her sprawling fam, her hockey momdom, her impending grandmother status are a symbol of some vague, possibly endangered American thing, one last chance to yell from the rafters "We wuz robbed." Lineup all your instances of national politicians using white victimhood to get into offices--Willie Horton, White Hands, Sista Souljah, Reagan in Philadelphia etc.--they were all awful no doubt. But I have never seen a politician subject an alleged ally to something like this.


Let us take this story seriously for a moment. I have watched this whole Palin thing with some twinge of personal recognition. I come from a family of seven kids by four women. As I've said before, I've got brothers born in the same year, and brothers born to best friends. My father was a high-school drop-out. I am a college drop-out. I was a father by 24--my father had kids when he was 22. I come to books and learned things in a hard, organic way. I was watching Palin explain to Couric how it could be that she just got a passport last year, and I was thinking, "Shit, I don't have a passport now." What can I say? Azeroth was always a foreign country to me.

My point is that, Sarah Palin never struck me as stupid. When she talked about not backpacking across Europe and working her whole life, beneath the dumb anti-intellectual dig, I saw a gem of truth. I wish she had have mined it, instead of trying to score a cheap point. Rambling aside, she simply isn't ready. Maybe she would be eight years from now, but she isn't ready now, any campaign worth its salt would have known this.

In election season, there is a price for being turned into a symbol. When actual journalists, with a rep to protect, show up, they are going to do their job. Which brings me to the sexism of John McCain. He knew full well what Sarah Palin was going to face if he nominated her. He knew that reporters would go through her past, that they'd quizz her on the present, that she would need to be ready, and he shunted concern aside, and tossed her to the wolves. Think on that for a mement. For one last run at the White House, he risked a future star of the party he claims to call home. How do you do that? I don't meant to rob Palin of agency, certainly she is also a victim of her own calculations and ambitions. But where I am from the elders protect you, and pull you back when you've gone too far, when your head has gotten too big.

Of course the irony of all this is how conservatives have, for years, lampooned the liberal pursuit of multiculturalism/identity politics. But here's the thing, even when done haphazardly, awkwardly, and imprudently, the fight against bigotry and ignorance has rewards. But when you decide to not be a leader in the fight against sexism/racism and simply criticize those who do, you rob yourself of political experience. Put differently, there is a price--bigger than the black vote--to be paid for disengagement. You become ignorant of a growing sector of the world. They expected Hillary. And if it were a black man, they never even knew it could be someone like Barack Obama. So these guys go to the well one more time, and ressurect the old spectres of "Us against Them." But the fools haven't been paying attention--the"Us" has changed. This isn't Alabama, and it ain't 1968. There is a whole class of educated, working women, themselves, the children of educated working women. And this is what McCain has to say to them, "I don't care if you know a thing about foreign policy. I don't care if you know a damn thing about the economy. Here is what you are to me--breasts, hair and a lovely smile."

Turns out it helps to actually care about the fate of women, to know something about them, beyond your own lust, when going for their votes. Who'da thunk it?
 
Before I begin with my review of the debate, I want to point something interesting out. I'm not sure if this happened to any of you, but....


The first 15 minutes I was really involved with thing. Keeping notes on what both candidates said. Then I just watched and listen.


After about the first hour I started to get quite bored with the debate. My mind began zoning in and out and sometimes I didn't even really know what either was saying.


Then, I missed the moderator saying the 'final remarks' bit, so I heard Obama suddenly switch gears on the topic and started thinking, "Dude, what are you doing?" Then McCain spoke and it had nothing to do with Obama said, and I thought, "Dude, what are YOU doing as well??"

Then I realized it was their closing remarks. That's how much I kind of zoned out.


But anyway, now onto my review.


I'll begin first, with as best as I can, an objective review. Then I will delve into my personal thoughts.


At the start of this debate I was split pretty evenly between the two candidates. Obama started it off. Now I know I have said that Obama is full of charm, but my golly, it sure as hell worked on me. Everytime I see Obama talk I am just drawn in and listen like a little kid watching Santa.


Then McCain spoke and the debate begin.


Overall, I do not believe there was a hands down, clearly defined winner of the debate. And I am not going on my personal views, I am strictly going on their ability to debate and public speak. I think it definitely was leaning in favor of Obama, but I don't think where was anything, to me, that stood out that gave Obama that huge jump. Someone on CNN said Obama is a great public speaker and a horrible debater, and McCain is a great debater and a horrible public speaker. So I wanted to watch for that and see if that was true.


What I discovered was indeed that Obama is a great public speaker. No doubt about it. In his public speaking ability, I think he clobbered McCain. In terms of debating, I think, for the most part, they are split. I say for the most part because I want to point out a couple of things.


1) After the debate, the Republican analysts were saying Obama seemed defensive, and the Democratic analysts were saying McCain seemed defensive. Here is what I have to say to the CNN analysts - You do realize, CNN, that if someone is either calling you out on something that is a negative thing, or saying a false fact about you, that yes, indeed, naturally you will be defensive. Frankly I didn't see it as defensive, I saw it as debating.


2) Obama and McCain's style of debating is vastly different. I don't think one is better than the other, but I think it's different. Obama looked at both the moderator and McCain and would talk directly to McCain. Obama also praised McCain and said "I agree with Senator McCain" a few times. McCain only looked at the moderator. He never talked directly to Obama.


Obama debate pros: Spoke directly to McCain, looked at McCain, praised McCain on issues, proved that he is in fact a good debater, continued to show that regardless of lack of experience, has the ability to lead this country with calling out where the government has failed, and what needs to be done to fix it. He gave examples and facts and actual concrete 'what he will do' things. I didn't hear him say 'change' all night. I think. I was listening closely and I didn't hear that word, defended himself if a false fact or negative statement was made.


Obama debate cons: Non evident.


McCain debate pros: Defended himself if a false fact or negative statement was made, spoke excessively about his experience in other countries and working with world leaders, made it evident that he is passionate about the military (very clear, not vague as some politicians do, whether we agree with his stance on this or not, he is open about it).


McCain debate cons: Did not look at Obama. Did not speak to Obama directly. spoke excessively about his experience in other countries and working with world leaders (I put this in pros and cons because after a while it got tiresome).



Now onto my personal views -

I love watching/listening to Obama The man could tell me I am going to die in 24 hours and I'd still be thrilled at how he presents it. That is how GOOD of a public speaker and charismatic this man is. His words sound so good, and tonight he didn't let me down any.


I think, if you're an Obama supporter, you can easily say Obama walked all over McCain. And I can definitely see how that view point could be made, as whenever McCain spoke I kind of got bored, and whenever Obama spoke I perked up.


I think if you're a McCain supporter, you can easily say that McCain debated his best and held his own with his experience and knowledge. And I can definitely see how that view point could be made because whenever McCain spoke, you have to admit, the man has been around a long time and has seen a lot of political stuff. And whether one agrees with what he says, one has to admit he has a true grasp on where the country has been, and where it is now. So to answer the question if he has experience, he definitely does.


And now the verdict of where I personally have moved, if I have, on the political plane with Obama and McCain:









I have shifted from the middle more into Obama territory. He is great to watch, to listen to, I think if elected President he would be a fine speaker and better than Bush. Well, anyone is a better speaker than Bush. Gilbert Gottfried would be more intellectual to watch than Bush.


I'm not quite 100 percent sold on Obama, but I have definitely begun down that path. The points he made tonight I truly agree with a lot of. The things McCain said tonight didn't really jive with my views as much as Obama.


So, if I have to score this debate, I will say:

Obama 1, McCain 0
 
Given Obama's messianic levels of oratorical skill one would expect McCain to have been completely annihilated, instead we get more complaints that the GOP is being mean, wtf.
 
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