2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread 13: Victory Lap

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Scientism is the idea that only science can explain anything; that by claiming that everything is reducible to a scientific explanation (thoughts are the product of brains, which are the product of biology, which is the product of physics...) then entire levels of knowledge are fully ignored (history, culture, philosophy etc.).

I feel that when you have declared my convictions to be a type of scientific fundamentalism this is implied. I don't think its true because I see the humanities as valuable, for their own sake, while everything from art to my sense of self may in fact be the products of physics it doesn't deny the sense of aesthetic or importance of other fields to make sense of existence.

I know what scientism is, I just can't remember declaring any of your convictions of being scientific fundamentalism...:shrug:
 
You may have BVS and myself mixed up.

I have said your belief system is not much different a religious persons.

You have written things that appeared to suggest that you believed there absolutely is no God and seemed to challenge (and even mock) believers.

I personally don't care (too much) if there is a God or not.

My main concern is my own behavior, and the welfare of others.


For instance I don't always take the time to stipulate that the there is a possibility of an intelligent God, however remote, I hold a type of agnosticism

- how many believers operate under the assumption that there is a possibility that God doesn't might not exist?

Good to see that don't claim absolute Atheism.

As for your question, I very strongly believe many, if not most believers do often consider that God may not exist.

Especially the religious leaders. But, all things being equal, they choose to stay with the program for the 'community' benefits.
What's the harm? What is there to lose? Are there benefits for staying with the program?
 
The benefits of religious belief is somewhat of an open question.

The studies from America which show positive correlations between going to church and good health and well being are often cited as evidence that religious faith is good for you, but in more secular nations with a tradition of community there are no differences. It seems that in America sticking with the program is the only way to enjoy the benefits, atheists may be ostracised for cultural reasons. Your country seems to have quite a bit of religious plurality and people seem willing to change their faith when its necessary without much strife, it would be nice if Godlessness wasn't equated with evil.
 
the difference is that atheists that are bigots are honest enough to stand up for thier own beliefs

I don't know about that. . .I don't think very many bigots. regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, would describe their beliefs as bigotry.

Why is China opposing this UN statement? What is their "open and honest" statement on their support of homophobia?
 
I don't know about that. . .I don't think very many bigots. regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, would describe their beliefs as bigotry.
I believe all people have bias,
most people would not admit they have racist or bigoted beliefs,
I would bet you have seen little bits of racism in many decent people that would be shocked if you pointed it out to them.

I believe that people that think it is fine for gay people to live in America, and have to obey all laws, pay all taxes, and be subject to all other U S regulations,
but not have the same benefits, rights and privileges as others, people that believe that are supporting bigotry, but I would not call them bigots.


Why is China opposing this UN statement? What is their "open and honest" statement on their support of homophobia?

I believe the Chinese would say it is abnormal behavior, not constructive to the People's Republic.

They would not say they oppose it because it is a sin.
and that they are not the party that made that determination.
 
The benefits of religious belief is somewhat of an open question.

The studies from America which show positive correlations between going to church and good health and well being are often cited as evidence that religious faith is good for you.

I would be skeptical of those claims, I believe people benefit from associations, social networks, they do not have to be religious.

The benefits I was thinking about were things more like social promotions, relationships, friendships, employment, etc.
 
Is this an outreach to gays ??

Obama to take oath of office using Lincoln Bible

Posted: 07:09 AM ET

Obama will be the first president since Lincoln's first term to be sworn in using the Lincoln Bible.

The Obama transition team announced Tuesday morning that the president-elect would be sworn in with the Lincoln Bible, used by 16th president when taking the oath of office in 1861 (Full statement released Tuesday follows):

"Washington, D.C. - On January 20th, President-elect Barack Obama will take the oath of office using the same Bible upon which President Lincoln was sworn in at his first inauguration. Many Americans believe Lincoln may have been gay. That is the premise held by The Log Cabin Republicans .

The Bible is currently part of the collections of the Library of Congress. Though there is no constitutional requirement for the use of a Bible during the swearing-in, Presidents have traditionally used Bibles for the ceremony, choosing a volume with personal or historical significance. President-elect Obama will be the first President sworn in using the Lincoln Bible since its initial use in 1861.



( I thought he was going to swear on "The Anarchist Cookbook" being held by Bill Ayers, so much for Michael Savage's prediction. :shrug: )
 
I believe all people have bias,
most people would not admit they have racist or bigoted beliefs,
I would bet you have seen little bits of racism in many decent people that would be shocked if you pointed it out to them.

I believe that people that think it is fine for gay people to live in America, and have to obey all laws, pay all taxes, and be subject to all other U S regulations,
but not have the same benefits, rights and privileges as others, people that believe that are supporting bigotry, but I would not call them bigots.




I believe the Chinese would say it is abnormal behavior, not constructive to the People's Republic.

They would not say they oppose it because it is a sin.
and that they are not the party that made that determination.

Ummm. . .basically I agree with everything you just said. So obviously it's not you I'm arguing with here.
 
Some good news about Warren.

He seems to be moving away from the pedophile and incest comparisons.

Rick Warren loves gays, and more

If nothing else, this makes him a Christian leader that is better than most.

Also, I read somewhere he does polling, and surveys to see where people are at on issues.

That truly is refreshing. So many religions are locked in primitive, out dated dogma that has no rational basis for the world we are living in today.
 
Not to mention the Christophobia and hate speech charges, its no different from a fundamentalist Muslim preacher who gets caught on tape quoting some nasty bits of revelation.
 
You know there are a lot of ignorant people hiding behind 'so called' principle, once they declare their belief.

Why not benefit from the collective wisdom a better informed public?

One of the biggest shortcomings of religions is that they are 'dead' belief systems written hundreds of years ago.

Why not have a healthy, living religion that serves the times that it's adherents are living in.
 
Why not benefit from the collective wisdom a better informed public?

Why not have a healthy, living religion that serves the times that it's adherents are living in.



Changing beliefs after careful thought and consideration is one thing.

Sticking your finger in your mouth and then holding it up to see which way the wind blows is no way to decide what you believe.
 
Changing beliefs after careful thought and consideration is one thing.

Sticking your finger in your mouth and then holding it up to see which way the wind blows is no way to decide what you believe.

I never said he held his finger up to the wind.

Would you rather he just quoted Leviticus?
 
Changing beliefs after careful thought and consideration is one thing.

Sticking your finger in your mouth and then holding it up to see which way the wind blows is no way to decide what you believe.

This is only a problem if you consider him to be a religious leader.

I see him as a businessman.
 
Well, if we must take morality lessons from somebody...

gordan.jpg


Peace Be Upon Him :pray:
 
So back to the discussion of the Obama Presidency,

it seems like if they want to move legislation in the first 100 days, and that is the sweet spot for new presidents to get their agenda moving.

the Dems would be working together to get ALL the Senators seated.

I think the Dems have something like 57 (including Lieberman and Sanders)

Minnesota race with Franklin barely ahead will likely be in the courts for a few months.

The Illinois appointment being refused, can leave that seat vacant for some time.

That will leave the Dems with only 57 when they should have 59.

The Dems can not resolve the Minn seat any faster by themselves.

They can seat Burris and at least have a solid 58.
 
Feinstein and Congressional Black Caucus members – along with some senior Senate Republicans — are siding with Burris' fight to be seated.

Feinstein, who has communicated her views to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), praised Burris’ credentials, saying “he’s not some kid who has no background. I would be hopeful that this thing is going to be settled.”

She said she has spoken with African-Americans in California who say he is “very well respected.”

Can Diane Feinstein save the Democratic Party from it's own stupidity?
 
It was just a joke..

Yes I know about his qualifications

Nevermind..

Anderson Cooper for Secretary Of Hotness~definitely qualified

Actually I'd prefer Dr Oz talking about bm's..all JOKING aside
 
It was just a joke..

Yes I know about his qualifications

Nevermind..

Anderson Cooper for Secretary Of Hotness~definitely qualified

Actually I'd prefer Dr Oz talking about bm's..all JOKING aside

My bad, the only reason I responded like that is I heard some responses just like this morning on the radio from people who thought he was JUST a TV correspondent.
 
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