2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread 13: Victory Lap - Page 51 - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-22-2008, 09:34 PM   #751
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Scientism is the idea that only science can explain anything; that by claiming that everything is reducible to a scientific explanation (thoughts are the product of brains, which are the product of biology, which is the product of physics...) then entire levels of knowledge are fully ignored (history, culture, philosophy etc.).

I feel that when you have declared my convictions to be a type of scientific fundamentalism this is implied. I don't think its true because I see the humanities as valuable, for their own sake, while everything from art to my sense of self may in fact be the products of physics it doesn't deny the sense of aesthetic or importance of other fields to make sense of existence.
I know what scientism is, I just can't remember declaring any of your convictions of being scientific fundamentalism...
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:33 PM   #752
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You may have BVS and myself mixed up.

I have said your belief system is not much different a religious persons.

You have written things that appeared to suggest that you believed there absolutely is no God and seemed to challenge (and even mock) believers.

I personally don't care (too much) if there is a God or not.

My main concern is my own behavior, and the welfare of others.


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For instance I don't always take the time to stipulate that the there is a possibility of an intelligent God, however remote, I hold a type of agnosticism

- how many believers operate under the assumption that there is a possibility that God doesn't might not exist?
Good to see that don't claim absolute Atheism.

As for your question, I very strongly believe many, if not most believers do often consider that God may not exist.

Especially the religious leaders. But, all things being equal, they choose to stay with the program for the 'community' benefits.
What's the harm? What is there to lose? Are there benefits for staying with the program?
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:08 PM   #753
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The benefits of religious belief is somewhat of an open question.

The studies from America which show positive correlations between going to church and good health and well being are often cited as evidence that religious faith is good for you, but in more secular nations with a tradition of community there are no differences. It seems that in America sticking with the program is the only way to enjoy the benefits, atheists may be ostracised for cultural reasons. Your country seems to have quite a bit of religious plurality and people seem willing to change their faith when its necessary without much strife, it would be nice if Godlessness wasn't equated with evil.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:12 PM   #754
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the difference is that atheists that are bigots are honest enough to stand up for thier own beliefs
I don't know about that. . .I don't think very many bigots. regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, would describe their beliefs as bigotry.

Why is China opposing this UN statement? What is their "open and honest" statement on their support of homophobia?
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:33 PM   #755
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I don't know about that. . .I don't think very many bigots. regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, would describe their beliefs as bigotry.
I believe all people have bias,
most people would not admit they have racist or bigoted beliefs,
I would bet you have seen little bits of racism in many decent people that would be shocked if you pointed it out to them.

I believe that people that think it is fine for gay people to live in America, and have to obey all laws, pay all taxes, and be subject to all other U S regulations,
but not have the same benefits, rights and privileges as others, people that believe that are supporting bigotry, but I would not call them bigots.


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Why is China opposing this UN statement? What is their "open and honest" statement on their support of homophobia?
I believe the Chinese would say it is abnormal behavior, not constructive to the People's Republic.

They would not say they oppose it because it is a sin.
and that they are not the party that made that determination.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:59 PM   #756
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The benefits of religious belief is somewhat of an open question.

The studies from America which show positive correlations between going to church and good health and well being are often cited as evidence that religious faith is good for you.
I would be skeptical of those claims, I believe people benefit from associations, social networks, they do not have to be religious.

The benefits I was thinking about were things more like social promotions, relationships, friendships, employment, etc.
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:08 PM   #757
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Is this an outreach to gays ??

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Obama to take oath of office using Lincoln Bible

Posted: 07:09 AM ET

Obama will be the first president since Lincoln's first term to be sworn in using the Lincoln Bible.

The Obama transition team announced Tuesday morning that the president-elect would be sworn in with the Lincoln Bible, used by 16th president when taking the oath of office in 1861 (Full statement released Tuesday follows):

"Washington, D.C. - On January 20th, President-elect Barack Obama will take the oath of office using the same Bible upon which President Lincoln was sworn in at his first inauguration. Many Americans believe Lincoln may have been gay. That is the premise held by The Log Cabin Republicans .

The Bible is currently part of the collections of the Library of Congress. Though there is no constitutional requirement for the use of a Bible during the swearing-in, Presidents have traditionally used Bibles for the ceremony, choosing a volume with personal or historical significance. President-elect Obama will be the first President sworn in using the Lincoln Bible since its initial use in 1861.


( I thought he was going to swear on "The Anarchist Cookbook" being held by Bill Ayers, so much for Michael Savage's prediction. )
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Old 12-23-2008, 02:30 PM   #758
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I believe all people have bias,
most people would not admit they have racist or bigoted beliefs,
I would bet you have seen little bits of racism in many decent people that would be shocked if you pointed it out to them.

I believe that people that think it is fine for gay people to live in America, and have to obey all laws, pay all taxes, and be subject to all other U S regulations,
but not have the same benefits, rights and privileges as others, people that believe that are supporting bigotry, but I would not call them bigots.




I believe the Chinese would say it is abnormal behavior, not constructive to the People's Republic.

They would not say they oppose it because it is a sin.
and that they are not the party that made that determination.
Ummm. . .basically I agree with everything you just said. So obviously it's not you I'm arguing with here.
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Old 12-23-2008, 08:49 PM   #759
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Some good news about Warren.

He seems to be moving away from the pedophile and incest comparisons.

Rick Warren loves gays, and more

If nothing else, this makes him a Christian leader that is better than most.

Also, I read somewhere he does polling, and surveys to see where people are at on issues.

That truly is refreshing. So many religions are locked in primitive, out dated dogma that has no rational basis for the world we are living in today.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:01 PM   #760
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He seems to be moving away from the pedophile and incest comparisons.


Also, I read somewhere he does polling, and surveys to see where people are at on issues.

So he does the polling, then changes his tune to fit the polls?

Sounds like a spineless leader to me.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:04 PM   #761
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Not to mention the Christophobia and hate speech charges, its no different from a fundamentalist Muslim preacher who gets caught on tape quoting some nasty bits of revelation.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:19 PM   #762
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So he does the polling, then changes his tune to fit the polls?

Sounds like a spineless leader to me.

Would you rather he believed in stoning people to death because it is written.
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:14 AM   #763
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Would you rather he believed in stoning people to death because it is written.

I'd rather he chose a position based on what he believes in, and then stuck to it.

I don't like it when so-called "men of principle" change their principles based on polls and political expediency.
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:01 AM   #764
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You know there are a lot of ignorant people hiding behind 'so called' principle, once they declare their belief.

Why not benefit from the collective wisdom a better informed public?

One of the biggest shortcomings of religions is that they are 'dead' belief systems written hundreds of years ago.

Why not have a healthy, living religion that serves the times that it's adherents are living in.
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Old 12-24-2008, 10:46 AM   #765
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Why not benefit from the collective wisdom a better informed public?

Why not have a healthy, living religion that serves the times that it's adherents are living in.


Changing beliefs after careful thought and consideration is one thing.

Sticking your finger in your mouth and then holding it up to see which way the wind blows is no way to decide what you believe.
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