2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread 13: Victory Lap - Page 50 - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-20-2008, 05:13 PM   #736
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I am not sure he will be undone.

but, a couple of years back, when everyone was just gushing about his "Purpose Driven Life " book I gave it a quick once over. and reading between the lines, I saw him for what he was then.
I was actually struck by the transparency of that book as well.

My Mom passed it on to me, and I thought she'd be more susceptible to the code language he used. She wasn't, thankfully. But he's still sold millions of copies so people are buying it hook, line and sinker.
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Old 12-20-2008, 05:35 PM   #737
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and the christianist and the muslimists think they have nothing in common ...
I don't like ANY Fundalmentalist wing of any Religion.

I knew that by the time i was around 10 yrs old because of things i read/heard.

I'm sorry, Irving.

I expect on the part of Pres-elect Obama's actions/non-actions to feel good/ feel disusted-horrified (but HOPEFULLY the way smallist %) and elated.

I sort of understand why he's doing it - check out Thom Hartman's piece on it- but I still feel yucky about it.


And as a feminist..... I/we pick our battles too, Irving.
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Old 12-21-2008, 12:23 AM   #738
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Barack Obama knows liberals are upset he picked the conservative evangelical preacher to pray at the inauguration. And he doesn't care.

By Mike Madden

Dec. 19, 2008

For more than two years, cozying up to Rick Warren has been one of Barack Obama's favorite ways of showing evangelical Christians that he might not be so scary, after all -- and for just as long, palling around with Obama every once in a while has been Warren's way of trying to show more secular-minded people that he's not so bad, either.

So about the only thing less surprising than the outrage that news of Warren's selection to give the invocation at Obama's inauguration is prompting among gay activists, liberals and Obama supporters generally is probably Warren's appearance on the program in the first place. Obama and Warren have often used each other to demonstrate that they'll be willing to listen to people they disagree with -- and yes, also to let everyone know that they'll be willing to anger their friends. This isn't one of those political controversies that pop up out of nowhere without warning; whether they want to admit it or not, it seems Obama's advisors brought on this fight with his own supporters knowing full well what was coming.

Having Warren speak at the inauguration might make more sense for Obama, now that he's been elected, than going to Warren's Saddleback Civil Forum in August in search of evangelical votes did from a campaigning standpoint. When the ballots were counted he only did marginally better among white evangelicals than Gore and Kerry; the idea now, apparently, is to signal that Obama will be a president for all Americans, whether they voted for him on Nov. 4 or not.

Except that Warren, by this point, isn't just the purpose-driven friendly face of evangelical Christianity anymore. He took sides, very publicly, in favor of California's Proposition 8, which overturned the state's gay marriage law. "About 2 percent of Americans are homosexual, or gay and lesbian, people," Warren said in a widely circulated video (and in a virtually identical e-mail to his congregation) before the election. "We should not let 2 percent of the population determine to change a definition of marriage that has been supported by every single culture and every single religion for 5,000 years. This is not just a Christian issue, this is a humanitarian issue." Prior to that, his late summer Civil Forum, at which he interviewed McCain and Obama, was seen by many liberals as an ambush. Instead of sticking to questions on areas where Warren truly has broken from some religious conservatives, like climate change, the importance of alleviating poverty and preventing HIV transmission, Warren drew Obama and John McCain into a discussion of old-school social conservative hot-button issues: the definition of marriage and whether life begins at conception. Days later, he turned around and blasted Obama's answers on abortion rights, comparing being pro-choice to denying the Holocaust.

But Obama was determined to defend his pick Thursday, and he set out the pro-Warren talking points himself, when a reporter brought it up at his now all-but-daily press conference in Chicago. "A couple of years ago, I was invited to Rick Warren's church to speak, despite his awareness that I held views that were entirely contrary to his when it came to gay and lesbian rights, when it came to issues like abortion," he said. "Nevertheless, I had an opportunity to speak. And that dialogue, I think, is part of what my campaign's been all about -- that we're not going to agree on every single issue, but what we have to do is to be able to create an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable and then focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans."

Translated out of press-conference-speak, though, that basically means: "I know you're upset. Too bad."
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Old 12-21-2008, 01:24 AM   #739
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Translated out of press-conference-speak, though, that basically means: "I know you're upset. Too bad."

Or "Now that you voted for me, fuck off."
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:02 AM   #740
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american politics is hysterical.
maybe canada is different afterall.
differing views always leads to one end being referred to as a bigot and the other elitist liberal.
mother britain should have done more to prevent the revolution, it would seem.
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:40 PM   #741
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Pastor Rick Warren addresses Muslim group, emphasizes need to find common ground

The evangelical Christian, who will give the invocation at Obama's inauguration, is the keynote speaker at convention in Long Beach.
By Raja Abdulrahim

December 21, 2008

Fresh from being tapped to deliver the invocation at President-elect Barack Obama's inauguration, Orange County Pastor Rick Warren spoke Saturday night to about 800 members of the Muslim Public Affairs Council at its convention in Long Beach.

Warren's theme was about people getting along, forgetting their differences and focusing on areas of agreement. The audience cheered him, and many people rose to their feet.

Among the first to stand was singer Melissa Etheridge, a lesbian, who performed for the audience.

Recognizing the potential for controversy, Warren said near the beginning of his speech: "Let me just get this over very quickly. I love Muslims. And for the media's purpose, I happen to love gays and straights."

He said people ask him what he prays for when it comes to Obama. "I pray for the president the same things I pray for myself: integrity, humility and compassion," he said.

A council spokeswoman acknowledged that some members objected to the choice of the evangelical pastor as the keynote speaker.

"We're always looking to work with unlikely partners, and I think he's a new kind of evangelical," said spokeswoman Edina Lekovic. "We have a lot in common."

Warren, like many Muslims, opposes abortion and same-sex marriage. Lekovic said he was introduced to the council by Orange County Muslim leaders who held an interfaith picnic with his congregation.

Obama last week chose Warren, who heads Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, to deliver the invocation at next month's inauguration.

The action angered gay and lesbian rights groups because Warren supported Proposition 8, the gay marriage ban that California voters passed in November.

Obama and the conservative white pastor have often found common ground. After meeting in Washington in January 2006, they began speaking regularly by phone.

While writing his best-selling book "The Audacity of Hope," Obama asked Warren, author of the 2002 bestseller "The Purpose Driven Life," to review the chapter on faith.

Warren also served as part of a "prayer circle" of supportive clergy leaders during Obama's presidential campaign.
It appears Obama and Warren have had a mutual benefit relationship for some time.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:17 AM   #742
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Well good for Melissa Etheridge, I'd say that's very generous of her
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:55 PM   #743
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Christmas vaca



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Old 12-22-2008, 02:55 PM   #744
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and the christianist and the muslimists think they have nothing in common ...
And the atheists. Note China's one of the opponents too. Religion is a convenient cloak for homophobia and a convenient scapegoat for those who want to find a reason for homophobia.

But prejudice runs deeper than religion.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:15 PM   #745
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the difference is that atheists that are bigots are honest enough to stand up for thier own beliefs
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:11 PM   #746
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the difference is that atheists that are bigots are honest enough to stand up for thier own beliefs

I don't find that to be true at all, especially in here...
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:21 PM   #747
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I am not an atheist
I guess I am agnostic

whatever bias' I have
I can not hide behind beliefs such as:
, unless you believe as me you are going to hell,
this or that personal behavior is a sin and you will be punished,
that is wrong , because it is written in a scripture.

I believe there is right / proper behavior
and the is wrong/ improper behavior,
my beliefs are based on my perceptions in the real world, with no consideration for some 'so-called' after-life.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:34 PM   #748
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I don't find that to be true at all, especially in here...
I stand up for my beliefs, which are built on fundamental assumptions about the nature of the world (one, that it is a substrate which manifests matter, energy and information without an intelligent overseer; two, that our understanding about the world must be justified, or in principle justifiable). My bigotry is limited to thinking that ideas are not inherently worthy of respect and should, or must, be critically evaluated; that goes does for my own thoughts which I try to constantly revise when new knowledge comes to light. For instance I don't always take the time to stipulate that the there is a possibility of an intelligent God, however remote, I hold a type of agnosticism - how many believers operate under the assumption that there is a possibility that God doesn't might not exist?

You've made the charge of scientism against me numerous times, I think its a silly argument; valuing freedom of argument and freedom of inquiry, without a censor, isn't a bad thing. Looking at the blind, mechanical process of design through evolution without turning back at the last moment and saying "God did it", at the point where God becomes superfluous, and undoing the powerful explanatory role of the theory isn't scientific bigotry; its common sense. And before thinking it cold, or heartless, just try to comprehend the beauty of knowing how things happen: that when you hold a rock you can know when and how it formed, or hold a fossil and unwind deep time to imagine a living creature living on some far flung earth. We can indulge the spiritual, and the numinous, to have big ideas, without deferring to traditions of revelation. It would be no stretch of the imagination to label that sort of spiritualism a form of pantheism, although I think that atheism for all its negative connotations can (but doesn't necessarily) encompass that wonder.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:56 PM   #749
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I stand up for my beliefs, and my bigotry is limited to thinking that ideas are not inherently worthy of respect and should, or must, be critically evaluated; that goes does for my own thoughts which I try to constantly revise when new knowledge comes to light. For instance I don't always take the time to stipulate that the there is a possibility of an intelligent God, however remote, I hold a type of agnosticism - how many believers operate under the assumption that there is a possibility that God doesn't might not exist?

You've made the charge of scientism against me numerous times, I think its a silly argument; valuing freedom of argument and freedom of inquiry, without a censor, isn't a bad thing. Looking at the blind, mechanical process of design through evolution without turning back at the last moment and saying "God did it", at the point where God becomes superfluous, and undoing the powerful explanatory role of the theory isn't scientific bigotry; its common sense.
Honestly, I wasn't thinking of you or Deep, when I made that statement. In fact the two of you were the first exceptions that popped into my head.

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say I have charged you of scientism, but I'd be interested in seeing what you are talking about...
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:12 PM   #750
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Scientism is the idea that only science can explain anything; that by claiming that everything is reducible to a scientific explanation (thoughts are the product of brains, which are the product of biology, which is the product of physics...) then entire levels of knowledge are fully ignored (history, culture, philosophy etc.).

I feel that when you have declared my convictions to be a type of scientific fundamentalism this is implied. I don't think its true because I see the humanities as valuable, for their own sake, while everything from art to my sense of self may in fact be the products of physics it doesn't deny the sense of aesthetic or importance of other fields to make sense of existence.
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