2008 Presidential Election : Third Debate

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Dalton said:
tee_ball.jpg
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are you calling me gay?
 
diamond said:
Joe the Plumber interview via CNN:

'Joe the Plumber' happy to help candidates make point - CNN.com
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:lol:

Kinda funny that he's not telling anyone who he's going to vote for. Maybe it's because........

U2democrat said:
Politico.com is reporting that Joe the Plummer isn't even registered to vote...:huh::shrug:

Ben Smith's Blog: The Joe file - Politico.com
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Joe the Plumber----the biggest political nothing there's ever been.

The fool will spend the next four years complaining about whoever wins.
 
Utoo said:
:lol:

Kinda funny that he's not telling anyone who he's going to vote for. Maybe it's because........



Joe the Plumber----the biggest political nothing there's ever been.

The fool will spend the next four years complaining about whoever wins.
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I'm sure ACORN can help him get registered.

:up:
 
diamond said:
I'm sure ACORN can help him get registered.

:up:
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Only if he registers under the name "Joe the Plumber."

Making >250K a year, it's unlikely he'll get kicked out of his house. Good thing...otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to vote.
 
cydewaze said:
This is an online poll:
AOL Straw Poll

and I just discovered that you can vote multiple times, which is a favorite tactic of poll skewing (aka "freeping") that right-wingers engage in.

Ergo, that poll is meaningless.

Go slap yourself ;)
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What's stopping the Obama camp from clicking endlessly?

With ACORN they vote more than once, why not here?

:)

<>
 
Why is this guy really being used as an example of the middle class or of small businesses?

What small business makes over a quarter million a year? My mom owns a used bookstore--she pulls down about $30K. A few posters in here own their own small businesses--I'm sure they can attest to similar numbers much lower than >250K/year.
 
diamond said:
What's stopping the Obama camp from clicking endlessly?

With ACORN they vote more than once, why not here?

:)

<>
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ah, ACORN. you know what? Charlie Crist is pissed, probably because he had to marry a woman and still got dicked over (heh-heh), and McCain might actually have a chance had he picked the man with the tan. but, hey, when you structure the social policy of a party around hating gay people, you miss out on genuine talent.

so Crist is calling bullshit on the non-scandal of ACORN:

Gov. Crist: False voter registrations not big problem in Florida

BY MARC CAPUTO
Breaking with the talking points of his fellow Republicans in Washington, Florida Gov. Charlie Crist said he does not think voter fraud and the vote-registration group ACORN are a major problem in the Sunshine State.
''I think that there's probably less [fraud] than is being discussed. As we're coming into the closing days of any campaign, there are some who enjoy chaos,'' Crist told reporters.

Crist made his comments as the Republican National Committee hosted a conference call with reporters to tie Democrat Barack Obama to suspicious voter-registration cards submitted by ACORN across the nation and in four Florida counties, including Broward.

In the Broward case, an unknown person tried to re-register a longtime voter named Susan S. Glenckman. Broward officials caught the error in August when it was brought to their attention by ACORN.

During the Wednesday Republican conference call, national party spokesman Danny Diaz focused more on a case in Orange County, where someone used an ACORN-stamped voter-registration card to sign up Mickey Mouse.

But Crist's Republican Secretary of State, Kurt Browning, said he doesn't think ACORN is committing systematic voter fraud. And Crist said that settles the matter because ''I have enormous confidence'' in Browning.

Like ACORN spokesmen, Browning says the false voter registration forms could be blamed on unethical canvassers or on citizens who themselves fill out fictitious voter cards.

REGISTERING VS. VOTING

Elections officials point out that while voter-registration fraud is relatively easy, vote fraud is far more difficult because a criminal would have to evade multiple layers of computer-system and identity checks. They also say the system is not overwhelmed with phony registrations, as Diaz suggested during the conference call.

ACORN's head Florida organizer, Brian Kettenring, went a step further, saying the group was being framed in the Mickey Mouse case -- though he wasn't sure who was behind it.

''We have a substantial reason to believe someone probably got one of our cards and submitted it to the elections office without us knowing,'' Kettenring said.

But Diaz, the national Republican spokesman, said Wednesday that there is no way ACORN is a victim, considering ''the volume'' of registration-fraud complaints and investigations in numerous states.

''When you sign the Dallas Cowboys in Nevada, Mickey Mouse in Florida, a 7-year-old girl in Connecticut,'' Diaz said, ``their argument that this is all some kind of a conspiracy is laughable on its face.''

Diaz, echoing previous statements from the party and John McCain's campaign, said Obama hasn't been honest about his links to ACORN.

Obama told reporters Tuesday that Republicans are engaging in distractions. He said his campaign has nothing to do with ACORN and that ACORN is probably the victim of lazy card gatherers or card signers who make up names or fraudulently fill out registration cards.

ACORN submits all registration cards -- even ones it knows are phony -- because it's illegal to destroy the cards in Florida, and Browning said the group should even turn in incomplete registration cards.

REJECTED

Kettenring said the group has quality-control checks to alert officials of suspicious cards. Although it flagged the Glenckman problem in Broward, ACORN never saw the Mickey Mouse card, Kettenring said.

A housing, poverty and wage advocacy group, ACORN stands for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. It has signed up more than 150,000 new Florida voters out of the 1.3 million it registered in the past two years nationwide.

Echoing Browning and other county elections supervisors, Mary Cooney, a spokeswoman for Broward County Election Supervisor Brenda Snipes, said the office had a good working relationship with ACORN.

But Cooney said the office began tracking ACORN registrations after noticing about 10 percent of the 16,000 registration cards it submitted were returned by the post office as undeliverable.

Cooney said the returned mail wasn't suspicious, but it was worthy of note. Cooney said that, if the office had suspected real fraud, it would have turned the matter over to the state attorney's office. But it didn't.

Obama had downplayed his ties to ACORN on his ''fight the smears'' website, saying that his most extensive work with ACORN was when he represented the group along with the U.S. Justice Department in a lawsuit. Turns out, he also trained some ACORN community organizers at a seminar, so Obama's website was changed to reflect that he was never ''hired'' as a trainer.

McCain campaign manager Rick Davis made much of that in a conference call last week, urging reporters to ask Obama: ``What were you teaching them? Were you teaching them how to evade the law?''

Davis also said anyone who believes ACORN isn't up to something bad is ``naive.''

But the day before, when Crist was asked whether he had any suspicions or evidence that ACORN was up to anything illegal or unethical, he gave a quick and brief reply: ``No.''
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diamond said:
What's stopping the Obama camp from clicking endlessly?

With ACORN they vote more than once, why not here?

:)

<>
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See, here's the problem with the ACORN argument:

Who's voting twice?

The fake names were things like Mickey Mouse, Jose Cuervo, David Beckham, Alex Rodriguez. Not your name, my name, my neighbor's name.

If some guy in Illinois tries to go vote as Alex Rodriguez---what identification is he going to have?

Mickey Mouse, as we all know, hasn't voted since the 30s.


ACORN is a distraction. Much like the majority of the Republican tactics, and quite a large number of your arguments.
 
Biden calls out Joe the Plumber:

Biden questions 'notion of this guy Joe the plumber'
Posted: 11:36 AM ET

From CNN Associate Editor Rebecca Sinderbrand

(CNN) — Joe Biden sounded skeptical of “Joe the Plumber” Wurzelbacher’s working-class credentials Thursday.

“You notice John [McCain] continues to cling to the notion of this guy Joe the plumber,” Biden said on NBC’s Today show. “I don't have any Joe the plumbers in my neighborhood that make $250,000 a year that are worried.”

“The Joe the plumbers in my neighborhood, the Joe the cops in my neighborhood, the Joe the grocery store owners in my neighborhood — they make, like 98 percent of the small businesses, less than $250,000 a year,” said the Democratic VP nominee. “And they’re going to do very well under us, and they’re going to be in real tough shape under John McCain.”

McCain cited Wurzelbacher, who questioned Obama about his tax plan during a recent Ohio campaign swing, as someone would face higher taxes under the Democrat’s economic proposals.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350.
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I didn't watch much of it at all. I had to see the Project Runway season finale and then I tried to watch the debate, but McCain's smarmy smirk made me tune out quickly.

I just want to know if Joe the plumber has plumber's crack
 
the problem is the following: McCain's entire career and campaign have been built around this one assumption -- McCain is awesome!

and people have bought into this for years. sure, he did some awesome things, and some not so awesome things, but there's nothing coherent about his record other than that it was about his own belief in his own awesomeness. he got the media to believe it. but when Obama calmly challenged that awesomeness, McCain went nuts because he's always based himself on his own unchallenged awesomeness. so that's as big a reason as any as to why McCain is losing these debates -- he's insulted that someone has the temerity to challenge his central narrative, especially when that narrative, under scrutiny, turns out to be little more than a well maintained self delusion.

Obama wants to talk about issues he thinks that people care about. McCain wants to talk about how awesome he's been and will be as president. no wonder Obama crushed him in all three debates.
 
My Dad, the Jessie Jackson supporter felt that McCain won last night. I did not. What scares me is I have never ever voted for a winning Presidential candidate before. I am about to vote for Obama.
 
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbusiness/small_biz_taxes_factcheck.smb/index.htm
Fact check: Plumber Joe's taxes
McCain has entrepreneurs spooked about tax hikes, but fewer than 2% of small business owners would pay more under Obama's plan.

See all CNNMoney.com RSS FEEDS (close) By Stacy Cowley
Last Updated: October 16, 2008: 12:30 PM ET

Plumber Joe Wurzelbacher heard his name invoked more than two dozen times in the final presidential debate.

(CNNMoney.com) -- In speech after speech, presidential candidate John McCain hammers on the claim that his rival Barack Obama will raise taxes on many small businesses.

At the debate on Wednesday night, McCain said, "The small businesses that we're talking about would receive an increase in their taxes right now."

More typically he has said: "What [Obama] hasn't told you is that he would tax half of the income of small businesses in America," a line used in La Crosse, Wisc., last week.

Should small business owners fear for their wallets if Obama is elected? Not the vast majority, business and tax experts say.

To make its claim, according to a McCain spokesman, the campaign counts as a small-business owner any taxpayer who files a Schedule C, E or F - the forms used to report gains and losses from business ventures and farms.

Using that definition and citing IRS data, the campaign notes that "56.8% of total small business income is earned by businesses in the top two rates, which Barack Obama has pledged to raise."

It's true that Obama has proposed raising taxes on the top two income rates.

But there are three main problems with McCain's charge.

What is a small business?
First, it relies on a broad definition of what counts as a small business, including everyone who files a Schedule C, E and F.

But most people who file those forms don't run a business for a living: Those forms are also used to report income from freelance and consulting work, real-estate rentals, and most other non-salary sources.

For example, McCain and Obama both file Schedule C returns, thanks to their book royalties - but they hardly should be considered small business owners.
In 2005, there were 21.5 million Schedule C returns filed, according to the IRS.

A more realistic definition of small businesses turns up far fewer firms. The Small Business Administration estimates that there were 6 million small businesses in 2005, as measured by those with fewer than 500 employees and with staff on the payroll other than the owner.

Who pays?
Second, even using the broad definition of small business that McCain likes, very few owners would see their own taxes rise.

That's because the lion's share of taxable income comes from a small number of wealthy businesses. Out of 34.7 million filers with business income on Schedules C, E or F, 479,000 filers fall into the top two brackets, according to an analysis of projected 2009 filings by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

The other 34.3 million - or 98.6% - would be unaffected by Obama's proposed rate hike.

That includes Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher, whom McCain invoked nearly two dozen times at the debate Wednesday night to illustrate the plight of the average worker and small business owner.

"Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years ... he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes," McCain said.

In an interview afterward with WTOL, Wurzelbacher acknowledged that he'd still like to eventually buy the plumbing company he works for but that he wouldn't yet be hit by higher taxes.

"I want to set the record straight: Currently I would not fall into Barack Obama's $250,000-plus," he said. "But if I'm lucky in business and taxes don't go up then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket - well, let me rephrase it. Hopefully, that tax won't be there."

Few owners are that lucky in business. In a member survey conducted late last year, the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) found that only 14% of respondents said they had $200,000 or more in annual income.

As Tax Policy Center fellow Len Berman recently told Fortune Small Business: "Most owners of small businesses have small incomes."


What gets taxed?
Third, even if you're one of the rare business owners making enough money to be affected by Obama's proposed tax increases, you still won't see a big hike in your tax bill.
McCain's claim that Obama "will increase taxes on 50% of small business revenue" - the line he used in the second presidential debate - is incorrect because of how income is taxed.

If a business owner falls into the top bracket, that doesn't mean that all of his or her income is taxed at the highest level.

For example: If a small-business owner makes $210,000 in taxable income, he edges into the 33% bracket, one of the two top tax rates that Obama would like to raise.

But he would pay the higher tax only on the amount that exceeds the cutoff - in 2007, the two top tax rates applied to single filers with income of $160,850 or more and joint filers with income of at least $195,850. As a single filer, this business owner would see his federal taxes increase $1,475 under Obama's plan, which calls for raising the 33% tax rate to 36%.

"While Obama does favor raising the top two rates, the quote is not true because not all the small business income of those in the top two rates is taxed at the 33% and 35% rates," said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the nonpartisan Tax Foundation.

The bottom line: McCain's claim only works by using an overly broad definition of what counts as a "small business" - and even with that definition, fewer than 2% of business owners would be hit by Obama's proposed rate increase. For those who are affected, the increase would be levied only on a part of their earnings, not all of them.
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.
 
Officials: FBI investigates ACORN for voter fraud



Oct 16 01:25 PM US/Eastern
By LARA JAKES JORDAN
Associated Press Writer Write a Comment


WASHINGTON (AP) - The FBI is investigating whether the community activist group ACORN helped foster voter registration fraud around the nation before the presidential election.
A senior law enforcement official confirmed the investigation to The Associated Press on Thursday. A second senior law enforcement official says the FBI was looking at results of recent raids on ACORN offices in several states for any evidence of a coordinated national scam.

Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Justice Department regulations forbid discussing ongoing investigations particularly so close to an election.

ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, says it has registered 1.3 million young people, minorities and poor and working-class voters—most of whom tend to be Democrats.

Republican accusations about the group were raised during Wednesday's presidential debate between Democrat Barack Obama and GOP candidate John McCain.

Some ACORN employees have been accused of submitting false voter registration forms—including some signed `Mickey Mouse' or other fictitious characters.

Those voter registration cards have become the focus of fraud investigations in Nevada, Connecticut, Missouri and at least five other states. Election officials in Ohio and North Carolina also recently questioned the group's voter forms.

ACORN has said the "vast majority" of its workers are conscientious, but some might have turned in duplicate applications or provided fake information to pad their pay. Workers caught submitting false information have been fired, ACORN officials say.

ACORN says laws in a number of states require it to submit all registration cards it collects even dubious ones, so its workers segregate applications with missing, suspicious or false information and flag them so state election officials can quickly check them further.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
 
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