U2's downfall...

[frank0087]

U2's eagerness to write an album full of joyful songs will eventually be their undoing.

the only way this album has any chance of being considered one of u2's best is if it has some sort of darkness or sexiness somewhere in the songs. this is what has been lacking in the last two albums especially.

it is true that darkness/sexiness doesn't always translate as well live, but it is essential to any album which hopes to have longevity. the songs that have choruses that an entire stadium can sing along to are great, but they do not always hold up as well on an album. u2 need to get personal again, they've conquered stadiums, they don't need to aim for that anymore. i think their eagerness since pop to write albums that translate well live has been their downfall in the studio.

 

[Hitman]

I agree, but I think with the Moroccan influences there will be more darkness and sexiness~

 

[bazza]

agree completely - you are spot on. it needs to change from 'happy/cute' music to something more hard. let's hope they deliver.

 

[Utoo]

Y'know, I kind of agree, too. I don't think that they need to get as dark and burnt-out as Pop was (their heaviest album by far, IMO). But I think that one part (of many) what makes JT and AB masterpieces is their master of bittersweet. ATYCLB was marketed as a positive album, and I think it worked well for it. To me, though, what's made U2 great throughout their career is that even when they're leaning positive or leaning darker, either way you have a touch of the other in the lyrics. Y'know, if you really know all the lyrics, they don't really have a song that you want to play at your wedding.

 

[VonBono]

Indeed, we need a MOFO, we need a GONE, we need an ACROBAT, a FLY, an EXIT.... all indicators are indeed pointing at a tack in a new direction, hopefully one that will encompass a little more than the 'easy listening' we have had recently...

 

[digitize]

I agree... all their great albums, I think, have had some sort of angst to them that the last to lack. Starting with War, because I haven't listened to Boy and October closely enough to judge them:

War: Obvious
The Unforgettable Fire: Brilliant masterpiece, starting with the optimism of Homecoming and Pride, to the 'high' of Wire, to the beautiful angst in TUF and Bad, to a beautiful ending with MLK.
Joshua Tree: Similar to TUF, this album adjusts its mood very well... starting with Streets and ending with Mothers of the Disappeared, touching on optimistic religious themes in Still Haven't Found to WOWY, which is sad but, at the end, optimistic (Shine Like Stars). Great album.
R&H: Less attitude than JT or TUF, but still not all cheery and optimistic... see God Part II (Or The Fly Part I).
Achtung Baby: Probably their best... again, starting out optimistic (Zoo Station) and ending with Love is Blindness. One jewel on the album, I think, is Ultraviolet... musically, it doesn't sound dark, but the lyrics, when read closely, reveal something completely different. The Fly is pretty dark and ironic, lyrically, and is probably my favorite song on the album. One is an improved and enhanced WOWY (and WOWY is amazing to begin with), with similar themes, although I think One is more worldly and less personal. Wild Horses is just amazing... and bittersweet. Real Thing is more irony, like The Fly, and UTEOTW is also bittersweet (but freakin' amazing).
Zooropa: This develops off of the ironic themes in Achtung Baby... it's hard to make a judgment call, but I think it is more optimistic overall than Achtung Baby. The First Time, Lemon, and Stay are perfect representations of the fact that this album is bittersweet. Zooropa, Numb, and Daddy's Gonna Pay are good representations of irony in the album.
Pop: Starts at a party, ends at a funeral. Enough said:
ATYCLB and Bomb: SHINY HAPPY PEOPLE HOLDING HANDS

 

[rihannsu]

ATYCLB and Bomb = Shiny Happy People Holding Hands??????

Have any of you listened to what theses songs are about????

Beautiful Day = lyric about someone who has lost everything except apparently his faith

SIAMYCGOO = about a friend committing suicide

Elevation = about trying to lift yourself out of the darkness of your soul

Walk On = about someone who leaves her home, husband and child to spend years in house arrest in Burma

Kite = about preparing to lose your only living parent to a terminal illness

In a Little While = crawling home after a night of endless partying feeling like you're about to die

Wild Honey = Ok maybe this one is Shiny happy people

Peace on Earth = about the horrors that man visits on himself

When I Look at the World = about someone who can't see the good things in the world without seeing through someone else's eyes because all he sees is the bad shit.

New York = mid life crisis

Grace = Ok maybe shiny happy but more like the reprieve after threat of execution to me.

The music may be reflecting the power of their faith but the voice is full of angst and meloncholy.

Now for Bomb.

Vertigo = the dangers of temptation and falling from the heights

Miracle Drug = about all kinds of things which challenge us from birth defects to disease for which we need intervention from strangers

SYCMIOYO = about a painful relationship with someone you love who is dying in front of your eyes. Someone who won't let you in to help and your own realization of the necessity of your dependence on others.

LAPOE = about the struggle of loving others whether it be your lover or your enemies

COBL and ABOY = Ok Shiny happy people

AMAAW = about the constant struggle to hold on to true love in the face of easy romance

Crumbs = about as black a song as anything on AB about how those who have treat those who have nothing

One Step Closer = about someone on their death bed wrestling with the idea of God and about to find out one way or the other

OOTS = about fighting against society's constant bombardment on our self esteem

Yahweh = about dying to your own ego to surrender yourself to God

As for U2 needing to get personal again? WTF????? How on earth can Bono get any more personal than the last two albums that deal with death and loss and fear and faith. If you don't see personal here what do you want - graphic descriptions of every detail of his life?

Someone said ATYCLB was marketed as a positive album. I don't know about that, every interview Bono did talked about the melancholy and angst on the album that was only balanced out by the uplift of the music itself. The only reason the album can be seen as positive is really from the music because if the music had really sounded like Bono's lyrics you'd have wanted to kill yourself as Bono put it in one interview. Although I guess if all you can see on these two albums is shiny happy people then Bono is right that no one listens to the lyrics anyway so he really doesn't matter. Just stick a knife in his heart while you're at it. The man bleeds on these two albums it's not personal?

Dana

 

[Mr. V]

owned.

 

[josh82]

ATYCLB and Bomb = Shiny Happy People Holding Hands??????

Have any of you listened to what theses songs are about????

Beautiful Day = lyric about someone who has lost everything except apparently his faith

SIAMYCGOO = about a friend committing suicide

Elevation = about trying to lift yourself out of the darkness of your soul

Walk On = about someone who leaves her home, husband and child to spend years in house arrest in Burma

Kite = about preparing to lose your only living parent to a terminal illness

In a Little While = crawling home after a night of endless partying feeling like you're about to die

Wild Honey = Ok maybe this one is Shiny happy people

Peace on Earth = about the horrors that man visits on himself

When I Look at the World = about someone who can't see the good things in the world without seeing through someone else's eyes because all he sees is the bad shit.

New York = mid life crisis

Grace = Ok maybe shiny happy but more like the reprieve after threat of execution to me.

The music may be reflecting the power of their faith but the voice is full of angst and meloncholy.

Now for Bomb.

Vertigo = the dangers of temptation and falling from the heights

Miracle Drug = about all kinds of things which challenge us from birth defects to disease for which we need intervention from strangers

SYCMIOYO = about a painful relationship with someone you love who is dying in front of your eyes. Someone who won't let you in to help and your own realization of the necessity of your dependence on others.

LAPOE = about the struggle of loving others whether it be your lover or your enemies

COBL and ABOY = Ok Shiny happy people

AMAAW = about the constant struggle to hold on to true love in the face of easy romance

Crumbs = about as black a song as anything on AB about how those who have treat those who have nothing

One Step Closer = about someone on their death bed wrestling with the idea of God and about to find out one way or the other

OOTS = about fighting against society's constant bombardment on our self esteem

Yahweh = about dying to your own ego to surrender yourself to God

As for U2 needing to get personal again? WTF????? How on earth can Bono get any more personal than the last two albums that deal with death and loss and fear and faith. If you don't see personal here what do you want - graphic descriptions of every detail of his life?

Someone said ATYCLB was marketed as a positive album. I don't know about that, every interview Bono did talked about the melancholy and angst on the album that was only balanced out by the uplift of the music itself. The only reason the album can be seen as positive is really from the music because if the music had really sounded like Bono's lyrics you'd have wanted to kill yourself as Bono put it in one interview. Although I guess if all you can see on these two albums is shiny happy people then Bono is right that no one listens to the lyrics anyway so he really doesn't matter. Just stick a knife in his heart while you're at it. The man bleeds on these two albums it's not personal?

Dana

I agree 100%

 

[frank0087]

owned?... um, i don't think so..

when i talk about darker or sexier songs from U2, i am talking about a combination of things; not just the lyrics... in fact i'm mostly talking about the rythm of songs and the use of minor chords structures rather than major chords structures by the edge.

anyone can totally intellectualise each song and analyse every line and come to the conclusion that the lyrics are dark.. but c'mon, to say songs like crumbs, vertigo, original of species, yahweh, walk on etc are dark is an absolute joke! the fact is, none of them SOUND dark. and in the end, it is how they sound that matters.

bono may well have poured his heart out lyrically on the last two albums, but if he's gonna write melody lines such as 'waalllk o-on' etc that always SOUND happy, its not gonna matter how dark he goes lyrically... see the verse of UTTEOTW for an example of rythm, minor chords, and a dark melody combining to create a darker/sexier U2. hell, bono colud've sang the lyrics of wild honey in that song and it still would've sounded cool...

 

[lazarus]

For the record, Dana, you're exaggerating a bit on the defense there:

Kite isn't about preparing for a parent to die; that's just the extra meaning the song took on after Bob became sick. It was originally written about Bono not spending enough time with his kids. It may still be a tad bittersweet, but if you look at the bridge and chorus it's just saying that his kids will have a life beyond their childhood at home with their parents. He just wants to be around more before that happens.

Elevation a depressing song? Come on. You say it's about lifting your soul out of the darkness or whatever, but that's still optimistic.

Same with Walk On here. The inspiration is one thing, but it's totally a song of defiance and hope.

In A Little While: You're kidding, right? This is about, like, sex?

Miracle Drug is another hopeful song about the unconditional love a mother has for her child. Even if the child is sick, this is still positive.

AMAAW. It's a love song! It's about choosing loyalty and something permanent over fleeting romance! How is that dark?

OOTS is telling a young person to enjoy life while she is young, and trying to give her confidence. It's totally inspirational.

 

[rihannsu]

owned?... um, i don't think so..

when i talk about darker or sexier songs from U2, i am talking about a combination of things; not just the lyrics... in fact i'm mostly talking about the rythm of songs and the use of minor chords structures rather than major chords structures by the edge.

anyone can totally intellectualise each song and analyse every line and come to the conclusion that the lyrics are dark.. but c'mon, to say songs like crumbs, vertigo, original of species, yahweh, walk on etc are dark is an absolute joke! the fact is, none of them SOUND dark. and in the end, it is how they sound that matters.

bono may well have poured his heart out lyrically on the last two albums, but if he's gonna write melody lines such as 'waalllk o-on' etc that always SOUND happy, its not gonna matter how dark he goes lyrically... see the verse of UTTEOTW for an example of rythm, minor chords, and a dark melody combining to create a darker/sexier U2. hell, bono colud've sang the lyrics of wild honey in that song and it still would've sounded cool...

Uhm, you've just proved the point I made at the end, that it didn't matter how personal or painful the lyrics were because all you heard was the sound.

Dana

 

[rihannsu]

For the record, Dana, you're exaggerating a bit on the defense there:

Kite isn't about preparing for a parent to die; that's just the extra meaning the song took on after Bob became sick. It was originally written about Bono not spending enough time with his kids. It may still be a tad bittersweet, but if you look at the bridge and chorus it's just saying that his kids will have a life beyond their childhood at home with their parents. He just wants to be around more before that happens.

Elevation a depressing song? Come on. You say it's about lifting your soul out of the darkness or whatever, but that's still optimistic.

Same with Walk On here. The inspiration is one thing, but it's totally a song of defiance and hope.

In A Little While: You're kidding, right? This is about, like, sex?

Miracle Drug is another hopeful song about the unconditional love a mother has for her child. Even if the child is sick, this is still positive.

AMAAW. It's a love song! It's about choosing loyalty and something permanent over fleeting romance! How is that dark?

OOTS is telling a young person to enjoy life while she is young, and trying to give her confidence. It's totally inspirational.

It is much much less of an exaggeration than saying that the last two albums were all shiny happy people and that Bono should get more personal. I don't see how he can get much more personal.

Kite - yes it started with the episode with the kids but during the writing of the song it became about his dad as he remembered the similar incident with his father and he found out his dad was dying during the recording of ATYCLB as well as the fact that he was dealing with his own scare of possibly having throat cancer and maybe losing his voice if not his own life.

Elevation - I didn't say the songs were ultimately depressing, the music is what inoculates against that. But the themes all deal with struggle of some kind, some very dark and disturbing.

In A Little While - in Bono's own words is a song about a hangover and indeed was sung after a very raunchy night out on the town with little or no sleep. The vocal was done about 6:00 in the morning in a very broken voice. As Adam put it "Bono was VERY broken that day". Joey Ramones death turned it into a gospel song.

The fact that the songs are inspirational does not negate the fact that they deal with some very angsty subject matter. The description "shiny happy people" implies something along the lines of the typical christian worship music angle of all is right with the world. The only U2 song I can think of that really even fits this bill is WITS and even that one has a couple of dark lines in it. A shiney happy people song is about people who don't have any problems not about overcoming obstacles or triumph out of adversity and I still don't see any way that these albums can not be described as incredibly personal.

Dana

 

[vaz02]

Creating the perfect 3 minute pop song for their legacy will be u2's undoing.

 

[digitize]

Shiny Happy People was hyperbolic on my part...

However, like the R.E.M. song (which is sarcastically this way), most of the songs on the last two albums sound very 'uplifting' for commercial reasons... even IALW, for instance, might be about hangover... but come on! Put it next to One, or WOWY, or, hell, even UTEOTW...

 

[frank0087]

i said 'U2 need to get personal', not Bono alone....

 

[ramblin rose]

I agree, but I think with the Moroccan influences there will be more darkness and sexiness~

I'm not sure about this. I heard U2 made a point of only surrounding themselves with happy Moroccans during this trip.

 

[rihannsu]

Shiny Happy People was hyperbolic on my part...

However, like the R.E.M. song (which is sarcastically this way), most of the songs on the last two albums sound very 'uplifting' for commercial reasons... even IALW, for instance, might be about hangover... but come on! Put it next to One, or WOWY, or, hell, even UTEOTW...

Wait wait wait. Where do you get the idea that the sounds are "uplifting" for commercial reasons? Unless you are inside the guy's heads, how can you say you know why they wrote the music this way. Absolutely nothing I have ever read about this band no matter who it was written by ever talked about commercial aspects infiltrating the actual creation of the music stage of the process. I've never come across anyone who has worked with them ever saying they wrote something a particular way for commercial reasons. They may have marketed things in such a way as to maximize commercial impact but there's nothing wrong with that. Show me a quote that backs up that statement please. As someone here challenged me before let me see the back up for that arguement.

Dana

 

[digitize]

Wait wait wait. Where do you get the idea that the sounds are "uplifting" for commercial reasons? Unless you are inside the guy's heads, how can you say you know why they wrote the music this way. Absolutely nothing I have ever read about this band no matter who it was written by ever talked about commercial aspects infiltrating the actual creation of the music stage of the process. I've never come across anyone who has worked with them ever saying they wrote something a particular way for commercial reasons. They may have marketed things in such a way as to maximize commercial impact but there's nothing wrong with that. Show me a quote that backs up that statement please. As someone here challenged me before let me see the back up for that arguement.

Dana

Ah... most of the time if an artist is going to pursue a less artistic, more pop-ish sound, they're going to do it because it sells well... After the commercial disaster (although creative success) of Pop/PopMart, though, I guess I can't blame them.

 

[LemonMelon]

Making a second Achtung Baby will answer all of U2's recent issues with copying their old sounds!

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Actually, one of the songs that Dana considers "shiny and happy", Wild Honey, is one of the most personally bittersweet songs I've ever heard from U2. There's a huge feeling of nostalgia in that song, almost a passing by of romance...or one remembered in any case. It's a song that is celebrating a love, yet harkening back and trying to pull forward a sweetness lost, a sweetness only ripe in memory, an imploring of a feeling that is as strong yet as fragile as a memory: I could taste you, I could taste you even then, before the clocks kept time, before the world was made...

 

[lazarus]

It is much much less of an exaggeration than saying that the last two albums were all shiny happy people and that Bono should get more personal. I don't see how he can get much more personal.

Kite - yes it started with the episode with the kids but during the writing of the song it became about his dad as he remembered the similar incident with his father and he found out his dad was dying during the recording of ATYCLB as well as the fact that he was dealing with his own scare of possibly having throat cancer and maybe losing his voice if not his own life.

As I said, the song is bittersweet. But the actual lyrics of the bridge and chorus are trying to build confidence and independence in his kids. And the album's final section, "life should fragrant/rooftop to the basement" is pretty positive and inspirational. Part of it may be inspired by Bob (I wasn't aware that his condition had been known when it was written), but it's directed at Bono's kids.

Elevation - I didn't say the songs were ultimately depressing, the music is what inoculates against that. But the themes all deal with struggle of some kind, some very dark and disturbing.

Okay, now you're going to be telling me that "Don't Worry, Be Happy" is dark. Of course there is struggle in life. But "lift me up out of these blues" does not mean it's a dark-shaded song. The narrator isn't dwelling on it, and the person (or spirit) he's addressing is someone he knows can pull him out and lift him higher. The song is called "Elevation", for christ's sake!

In A Little While - in Bono's own words is a song about a hangover and indeed was sung after a very raunchy night out on the town with little or no sleep. The vocal was done about 6:00 in the morning in a very broken voice. As Adam put it "Bono was VERY broken that day". Joey Ramones death turned it into a gospel song.

Just because a hangover leaves you feeling like shit does not mean this song is a sad one. And you're going WAY beyond the lyrics here. Joey Ramone has nothing to do with it. The words themselves do not show any kind of sadness, especially if you're reading "this hurt will hurt no more" as a reference to a headache. It's about getting back to his loved one after a night of partying.

The fact that the songs are inspirational does not negate the fact that they deal with some very angsty subject matter. The description "shiny happy people" implies something along the lines of the typical christian worship music angle of all is right with the world. The only U2 song I can think of that really even fits this bill is WITS and even that one has a couple of dark lines in it. A shiney happy people song is about people who don't have any problems not about overcoming obstacles or triumph out of adversity and I still don't see any way that these albums can not be described as incredibly personal.

Dana

Bottom line, I don't even disagree with your general point. I never claimed all of these songs are simple. But I think in attempting to name almost EVERY one as something dark and conflicted was going a bit overboard, that's all I'm saying.

 

[dgurjala]

Not owned.

You guys are all double PWNED.

I agree with digitize, the last two albums are broadly considered positive and uplifting. Although the lyrical content may have serious aspects to it, the sound of the music and album themes are overwhelmingly positive.

In an attempt to make every track a single, in trying to make every track broadly appealing, in essence in having been a bit too calculating with their music, I think that inherently did make U2 did fall prey to creating less honest and heartfelt music, which is where U2 are at their best. Honest and heartfelt does contain angst, pain, bittersweet, the natural range of emotions. If nothing else, in trying to be uplifting the gestalt of U2's last albums addressed just the positive range of emotions. That's why people love Mercy so much, it captures the candor, honesty, heartfeltness, and overall atmosphere that we've missed so much since JT/Achtung/Zooropa.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

I enjoyed your post for the most part Dana, but this is just wrong...

OOTS = about fighting against society's constant bombardment on our self esteem

OOTS is a personal conversation with a young girl (presumably one of either Bono or Edge's daughters)...Bono is giving the girl advice, telling her how much he loves her, hoping and praying she lives a good life, and trying to inspire her to do so.

 

[digitize]

Not owned.

You guys are all double PWNED.

I agree with digitize, the last two albums are broadly considered positive and uplifting. Although the lyrical content may have serious aspects to it, the sound of the music and album themes are overwhelmingly positive.

In an attempt to make every track a single, in trying to make every track broadly appealing, in essence in having been a bit too calculating with their music, I think that inherently did make U2 did fall prey to creating less honest and heartfelt music, which is where U2 are at their best. Honest and heartfelt does contain angst, pain, bittersweet, the natural range of emotions. If nothing else, in trying to be uplifting the gestalt of U2's last albums addressed just the positive range of emotions. That's why people love Mercy so much, it captures the candor, honesty, heartfeltness, and overall atmosphere that we've missed so much since JT/Achtung/Zooropa.

You said it perfectly.

 

[lazarus]

Well I don't agree that the last two albums are somehow less honest and heartfelt. They're TOO honest and heartfelt, if anything, with not enough abstraction. I agree that U2 is at their best when they've stepped back a bit and filtered these feelings through something a bit more ambitious sonically and thematically, but these recent songs obviously connected with a lot of people. It's the albums as a whole that fail to stand as impressive, comprehensive works.

 

[Rich79]

To me, that is reason #1 why ATYCLB is in the bottom 2 albums for me. Yes, all the songs are inspired by dark events (suicide, loss of faith, losing someone, house arrest, etc.) but they are presented in a way that says "Let's be completely optimistic about all this". They are too Cheery and Heartwarming for me. I love U2's darker material so much more. Achtung Baby had this atmosphere of saying "heartbreak really does suck; it's not a beautiful day and it's not going to be for a very long time." POP had it more-so than others with the desperation of begging for God to intervene because the singer is so down on the world and life. All of U2's music has something uplifting about it though; I think that's why so many people listen to them. It's just that ATYCLB seemed to take it to the limit in that aspect. I love the darker more ironic U2. Hopefully we'll get a little more of that this time around.

 

[LemonMelon]

Well I don't agree that the last two albums are somehow less honest and heartfelt. They're TOO honest and heartfelt, if anything, with not enough abstraction. I agree that U2 is at their best when they've stepped back a bit and filtered these feelings through something a bit more ambitious sonically and thematically, but these recent songs obviously connected with a lot of people. It's the albums as a whole that fail to stand as impressive, comprehensive works.

Agreed with you 100%, Laz.

A positive, joyous sound to the music is not inherently a problem. I feel that many of U2's melodies this decade have been incredibly enjoyable, as memorable as anything in their career. Bono has been the weak point, often lacking the abstract, poetic skill he once wielded. Plus, his voice was worthless from 1997 to about 2005. Now he has that back, but it remains to be seen if we'll be able to figure out precisely what his lyrics are about after one listen or thirty.

 

[Salome]

I honestly don't think these last 2 albums are all that calculated
well, not more calculated than POP (some electro here, something resembling old U2 there) was or War (adding a wee trumpet here, some female vocals there) just to name 2 examples
How to dismantle .... does sound like it took quite a bit of work to get there
a problem U2's best work doesn't have

I think Dana is 100% correct in stating how ludicrous it is to view these last 2 albums as "happy" music
death, leaving behind, crawling back seem the main themes

U2 has grown up
these guys are 40+
they write about where they are at the moment
and you can tell that at the moment mortality (in all its aspects) is a bigger issue than most other things

what would be fake and calculated is for these 4 guys to still pretend to struggle through issues that they actually left behind 10 or 15 or 20 years ago
it would also be fake to pretend their lifes are something it isn't
they live pretty much great lifes with some personal sadness

if its not your kind of darkness ....
tough luck

 

[rihannsu]

I enjoyed your post for the most part Dana, but this is just wrong...



OOTS is a personal conversation with a young girl (presumably one of either Bono or Edge's daughters)...Bono is giving the girl advice, telling her how much he loves her, hoping and praying she lives a good life, and trying to inspire her to do so.

Bono has said in interviews that it is about counteracting the negative influence of society on self image, about beautiful young people who don't see their own beauty because it doesn't conform to the accepted image which leads to eating disorders and such.

"I want everything you've got and nothing that you're not."

Dana